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Old 07-06-2018, 08:06   #1
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Exit stamps

Hello all,
Just seeking some advice. We are travelling on Australian Passports and have just arrived in Alghero Sardinia from Gibraltar via the Belaric Islands on our Lagoon Catamaran. We had departure stamps in our passports from La Linea Spain on the Spain - Gibraltar border however on applying for EU entry stamps here have been told they (the Italian Police) will not accept the Spanish departure stamps and as we have now overstayed our Shengen period have to depart the EU for a non-Shengen area for a minimum of 6 months! If we get caught still in the EU we will be banned from Europe for 3 years! Consequently we are leaving straight away and heading directly to Albania or Montenegro, some 2 weeks straight! The stamps we have in our passports are round ones indicating La Linea, the date and 'Salida' (Departure) but the only ones acceptable are the oblong ones with an exit arrow, an 'E' in the top left corner and a picture of a boat.
Needless to say we are pretty upset as we are going to miss out on Sardinia, the Italian Coast, Sicily etc.
Has anyone else had this experience and come up with any solutions.
Thanks
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:17   #2
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Re: Exit stamps

You could also head to Tunisia on your way.
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Old 07-06-2018, 14:32   #3
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Re: Exit stamps

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Originally Posted by multihullsailor6 View Post
You could also head to Tunisia on your way.
Thanks for that, we're considering all options at the moment.
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Old 07-06-2018, 17:05   #4
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Re: Exit stamps

Can you just book a short fight/bus/rail to somewhere then come back and continue your original sailing plans?
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Old 07-06-2018, 21:56   #5
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Re: Exit stamps

Why not sail to,Croatia, not Schengen but EU
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Old 07-06-2018, 23:29   #6
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Re: Exit stamps

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Can you just book a short fight/bus/rail to somewhere then come back and continue your original sailing plans?
Thanks for the thoughts, but it appears the perceived overstay of Schengen overrules everything and we have to leave.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:02   #7
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Re: Exit stamps

Ughhh that is awful. We are in Tunisia and heading for Sicily tomorrow. We have been here a week in Hammamet and it has been a good stop. You might also consider Malta (specifically Msida Creek marina) as the immigation officers seem extremely welcoming and tolerant.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:18   #8
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pirate Re: Exit stamps

If you spent time in the Ballearics your presence would have been noted and logged whether on the hook or in marinas..
They do have a good centralised info base along Med sea borders despite what the sprinkle of foriegn cruisers say.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:39   #9
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Re: Exit stamps

Quote:
The stamps we have in our passports are round ones indicating La Linea, the date and 'Salida' (Departure) but the only ones acceptable are the oblong ones with an exit arrow, an 'E' in the top left corner and a picture of a boat.
I think this is the interesting bit.

I’ve heard of similar problems with folks who departed North America from St Pierre/Miquelon without an exit stamp. Arrival agents considered the entire crossing as Schengen time.
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Old 08-06-2018, 07:15   #10
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Re: Exit stamps

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Originally Posted by Rapanui View Post
Why not sail to,Croatia, not Schengen but EU
Thanks, we have to go past Albania anx Montenegro anyway.
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Old 09-06-2018, 16:25   #11
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Re: Exit stamps

You should have sought a Schengen entry stamp in the Balearics (Spain) at at Port of Entry. Certainly arriving in Alghero Italy and declaring you were arriving from the Balearics without having gotten a Schengen entry stamp in the Balearics is a violation.

However, assuming the day you arrived in Alghero you were compliant with the 90 day/180 day rule, the violation should have been overriden, by EU law, and you should have been admitted. From this point forward, my comment assumes you were 90/180 compliant.

You have been illegally treated by the Alghero authorities. Your La Linea exit stamp is irrelevant.

The EU Schengen Borders Code, REGULATION (EC) No 562/2006, reads, Article 11:
Quote:
1. If the travel document of a third-country national does not bear an entry stamp, the competent national authorities may presume that the holder does not fulfil, or no longer fulfils, the conditions of duration of stay applicable within the Member State concerned.
2. The presumption referred to in paragraph 1 may be rebutted where the third-country national provides, by any means, credible evidence, such as transport tickets or proof of his or her presence outside the territory of the Member States, that he or she has respected the conditions relating to the duration of a short stay.
So, the Alghero people say: when and where did you enter Schengen? You say, for example, "Palma de Mallorca, June 1". They say, "prove it". You say, "I don't have proof I was in Palma on 1 June, but here are my marina and fuel receipts from Gibraltar, dated 27 February to 27 May." Gibraltar is not Schengen. You have just legally rebutted the Alghero immigration's presumption that you are illegally in Schengen, per Article 11, Paragraph 2. Your La Linea exit stamp is irrelevant.

This right to rebuttal is strong, because Paragraph 3 reads:
Quote:
3. Should the presumption referred to in paragraph 1 not be rebutted, the third-country national may be expelled by the competent authorities from the territory of the Member States concerned.
Since you have rebutted, you may not be expelled.

Furthermore, the Alghero authorities should have issued you the document specified in Annex VIII of the aforementioned law, which would have formalized you date of entry in Palma de Mallorca. Find image of Annex VIII attached.

The cited law can be downloaded in English:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...6R0562&from=EN

It can also be downloaded in Italian and in all other EU languages:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...LEX:32006R0562

Of course, waving the law around could easily have embarrassed the Italians and they may have found other ways to make your life miserable. Then again, they may have relented.

Speculation: The problem you now have is that they probably made an entry in the SIS (Schengen Information System). This entry, if it was made, will probably appear each and every time your passport is scanned at a Schengen entry or exit point, for several years. The Europeans have laws by which after a number of years they must erase your records. For the time being, if it can be removed at all, it is likely only the Alghero people can do it; or perhaps they themselves can make a follow up notation deprecating their original entry. I would stay away from Schengen for 181 days from your last Alghero day and not say anything next time you enter Schengen, but if the officer looks funny at you, don't miss the opportunity to ask what exactly does your record say. Then post that here.

I recently sailed from Alghero to Turkey non-stop. With the right weather, it was an easy two week sail, going S of Sicily and S of the Peloponese. With the wrong weather, some acquaintances had a horrible, horrible arrival in Malta earlier this year.

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Old 10-06-2018, 01:23   #12
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Re: Exit stamps

UPDATE:

The law cited above has been updated in 2016. The update is even more favorable to user Trublew.

In the updated law, Article 11 becomes Article 12. The updated Article remains the same, except a fourth paragraph is added. The new fourth paragraph reads:

Quote:
4. The relevant provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 shall apply mutatis mutandis in the absence of an exit stamp.
Therefore, not only did Trublew have a right to clarify the time and place of his arrival to Schengen in the Balearics, as discussed above, but he also had a legal right to demonstrate his departure from La Linea, arrival to Gibraltar, and indeed the entirety of his time spent outside Schengen in Gibraltar.

You see, Article 12 establishes that passport stamps give you a presumption of when you arrived and when you left the EU, but in the absence of any such stamps, you have the right to rebut "by any means" with "credible evidence".

So, the Alghero authorities say the La Linea Schengen departure stamp is not valid. Fine. OK. Not valid, so there is no stamp of Schengen departure. Well, in lieu of that stamp, show documents proving your dates of stay in Gibraltar. You may not be denied admission. "Rebut."

Updated law, in English.

Updated law, in each language of the EU, including Italian.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:54   #13
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Re: Exit stamps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Mo View Post
UPDATE:

The law cited above has been updated in 2016. The update is even more favorable to user Trublew.

In the updated law, Article 11 becomes Article 12. The updated Article remains the same, except a fourth paragraph is added. The new fourth paragraph reads:



Therefore, not only did Trublew have a right to clarify the time and place of his arrival to Schengen in the Balearics, as discussed above, but he also had a legal right to demonstrate his departure from La Linea, arrival to Gibraltar, and indeed the entirety of his time spent outside Schengen in Gibraltar.

You see, Article 12 establishes that passport stamps give you a presumption of when you arrived and when you left the EU, but in the absence of any such stamps, you have the right to rebut "by any means" with "credible evidence".

So, the Alghero authorities say the La Linea Schengen departure stamp is not valid. Fine. OK. Not valid, so there is no stamp of Schengen departure. Well, in lieu of that stamp, show documents proving your dates of stay in Gibraltar. You may not be denied admission. "Rebut."

Updated law, in English.

Updated law, in each language of the EU, including Italian.
Thankyou Fr Mo for your detailed reply, however if we had known that at the time we could have possibly put up a defense. But I suspect the zero english of the police and the little english of our interpreter would not have enabled us to get our point across. We are following your advice to get out of the Schegen area for the 180 days to reset the Shengen 90/180 days.

Thankyou everone for your thoughts and advice.

Regards Trublew
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:53   #14
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pirate Re: Exit stamps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Mo View Post
UPDATE:

The law cited above has been updated in 2016. The update is even more favorable to user Trublew.

In the updated law, Article 11 becomes Article 12. The updated Article remains the same, except a fourth paragraph is added. The new fourth paragraph reads:



Therefore, not only did Trublew have a right to clarify the time and place of his arrival to Schengen in the Balearics, as discussed above, but he also had a legal right to demonstrate his departure from La Linea, arrival to Gibraltar, and indeed the entirety of his time spent outside Schengen in Gibraltar.

You see, Article 12 establishes that passport stamps give you a presumption of when you arrived and when you left the EU, but in the absence of any such stamps, you have the right to rebut "by any means" with "credible evidence".

So, the Alghero authorities say the La Linea Schengen departure stamp is not valid. Fine. OK. Not valid, so there is no stamp of Schengen departure. Well, in lieu of that stamp, show documents proving your dates of stay in Gibraltar. You may not be denied admission. "Rebut."

Updated law, in English.

Updated law, in each language of the EU, including Italian.
A lot of assumptions above..
My take in the OP was that they stayed in the La Linea marina and just stopped in Gib for fuel.. else why walk over the border for a stamp they did not need.. and why no entry and exit stamp in their passport from Gib.
You do not have to clear in if only using the fuel dock.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:05   #15
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Re: Exit stamps

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
A lot of assumptions above..

Actually, my one and only assumption is that they were 90/180 compliant when they arrived in Alghero. Trublew arrived in Gibraltar in September and left in Mid-April, and was meticulous enough to get the Spaniards to stamp him out at the border crossing at La Linea.

Now, in your post,
  • you assume they stayed at the marina in La Linea (not relevant, since they stayed over 6 months in Gib),
  • you assume they stopped in Gib just for fuel (they did not),
  • you assume they got no entry and no exit stamp in Gib (I don't know if they did or did not, but I can tell you in Gib, if you don't formally ask for it, they often don't stamp)
Conversely, I agree 100% with you that if you only stop at one of the fuel docks in Gibraltar for cheap tax-free fuel, then you don't have to register in Gib. But in this case, the fuel attendant is not supposed to even let you walk across the street; you are confined to the fuel station grounds.
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