Denmark and Sweden: 6-8 Weeks: Recommendations?

[_andi_]

... and do not reverse into berths in the baltic like in the med, plenty are quite shallow in the front. Often it's just wooden structures on the natural coastline rocks. And pay attention the the depth inside of harbors, it's not uncommon to have less than 2m in certain places (like you can't enter at all or you can only enter parts of the harbor).



One thing to mention about the german bight: There's exactly one harbor which is always accessible in any weather (and crammed always): Heligoland. Do not try crossing any bar or enter any other Harbor without researching it first, especially in weather.

For Kiel Canal:



Expect to be waiting a bit and the waiting can be quite choppy on the brunsbüttel side. There might be fees which you have to pay at a machine or online (they haven't collected for the last couple of years for different reasons). They're always working on the locks, there's a website where you can see which locks are closed: Schleusen Sperrzeiten Normally, the small locks are for pleasure crafts but this might change due to situation. Inside the lock, you have to dock on a very low pontoon, so your fenders have to be flat on the water and you might need a ladder. Don't step on the wooden surfaces.

The signal system is quite confusing, if I remember correctly three red lights are to only reason the stop and wait inside the canal (for small craft).

And don't trust your autopilot too much, it's not uncommon for it to do sudden radical course changes due to all the iron around...

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by EdenRose

….We will be leaving The Netherlands mid-late May and need to leave Schengen area by mid-July. We have a new boat that we are hoping to give a good shakedown in the Baltic. After July we will escape to the UK/Channel Islands before heading back to over-winter the boat in The Netherlands.

(We are US citizens...VAT not paid so need to comply with VAT exemption and Schengen time limits).
…..
Harley and Susan
SV/Prudence

Hi Harley and Susan

You mention you “need” to leave the Baltic mid July after time spent in the Netherlands.

Some of the Baltic countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway) have old bilateral agreements in place that apply to US citizens (and citizens of other other countries such as Australia and NZ). 90 days total in a few countries in the Baltic is permitted after time spent in other Schengen countries.

We used this in Norway in 2019.

Our experience was similar to that of other cruisers: officials encountered in these countries are not aware of these agreements. I contacted the Norwegian embassy in Australia before we arrived requesting confirmation the agreement was still in place. The confirming email response was swift and helpful to have.

There are a several threads discussing this here on CF.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Harley and Susan

You mention you “need” to leave the Baltic mid July after time spent in the Netherlands.

Some of the Baltic countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway) have old bilateral agreements in place that apply to US citizens (and citizens of other other countries such as Australia and NZ). 90 days total in a few countries in the Baltic is permitted after time spent in other Schengen countries.

We used this in Norway in 2019.

Our experience was similar to that of other cruisers: officials encountered in these countries are not aware of these agreements. I contacted the Norwegian embassy in Australia before we arrived requesting confirmation the agreement was still in place. The confirming email response was swift and helpful to have.

There are a several threads discussing this here on CF.

SWL

Hot tip. HOWEVER, note that the Nordic countries pool the three months, so watch out. You can spend three months in the Nordic countries after spending whatever amount of time in NL and D, but then you can't go back to those countries. You will need to cross over to the UK. You CAN however transit the Kiel Canal without its being considered to be a sojourn in D.



I have a Finnish residence permit so this doesn't affect me, but I know Yanks who've used this system to good effect. The Nordic border control officials seem to be aware of the bilateral agreements.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by _andi_

. . . One thing to mention about the german bight: There's exactly one harbor which is always accessible in any weather (and crammed always): Heligoland. Do not try crossing any bar or enter any other Harbor without researching it first, especially in weather. . . . .

That's a really important tip. Don't forget this is the NORTH SEA. The German Bight is beyond horrendous in a NW gale, and survival conditions with wind against tide. Stay far away from the barrier islands and estuaries in onshore gales.

Helgoland is the only refuge in bad weather, unless you have wind with tide getting into the Elbe. This is also a good stop off allowing timing of the Elbe current, and an interesting place in its own right. Great place to stock up on duty free booze and diesel fuel too.

[Ekeno]

Brilliant !!!! I will ask you for advice and help when I need it in that area

[EdenRose]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The canals are fun but be very careful about draft and air draft restrictions. The so-called "Mast-up route" is too shallow for most 50' boats.


With a boat that size, unless very shallow draft and very low mast, you will likely have to come out the Ijsselmeer between Terschelling and Vlieland and follow the coast to the Elbe. This is not a bad trip and can be done in one overnight from from say Harlingen, which is very much worth a stop.


Another really great stop in NL is Enkhuizen, just at the lock between the Ijsselmeer and the Markermeer, with a fabulous outdoor museum. The harbour is lovely and you can anchor inside the harbour.



All these waters are very shallow so make sure you have good charts, pay attention to the tides, and be careful.


I would not recommend breaking up a Harlingen-Cuxhaven passage in the Frisian Islands as they are all treacherous to get into, through winding constantly changing channels, and very hard to get out of in any kind of weather. I would just do the overnight to Cuxhaven. Be careful about the timing of the tides in the Elbe; the currents really rip there and you have a good distance to go from the mouth of the Elbe to Cuxhaven.


The Kiel Canal is delightful and you shouldn't race through it. A great stop in the middle (and free) is the waiting pontoon at the entrance to the Gieselau Canal. Be careful to understand and obey the signals in the Canal, and follow the rules. Don't ask me how I know.


Once you're out of the Kiel Canal and inside the Baltic, you have an almost infinite choice of cruising grounds. Lot of good advice already in this thread. All the small harbours in Denmark are lovely. We think of Denmark as a small country but the length of the coastline is huge. The Swedish West Coast is also fabulous, especially above Gothenburg. That will give you plenty to do over 6-8 weeks.


But if you want to go further, the Swedish South and East coasts are fabulous, as is Bornholm. And the further you go, the better it gets -- Stockholm Archipelago, the Archipelago Sea, the Aaland Islands, the Finnish South Coast, the Estonian Islands. It would take many summers to properly see all of this. You can pretty much take your pick within whatever range you're comfortable with -- you can't really go wrong.


There are almost infinite possibilities for anchoring in these places and you will rarely share an anchorage with even one other boat. But the anchoring is tricky as the bottom is rocky. But the small community "guest harbours" are delightful and incredibly cheap -- often not more than 10 or 20 euros a night. We spend as much time in these as we do at anchor.



Note that mooring in these harbours is mostly bows-to using your kedge anchor from the stern, or a rope around a pile, or a rope in a buoy. Alongside mooring is rare. It takes some time to get the hang of this. You need a ladder to get down to the dock from the bow, and you need a special hook for catching the buoys. Note that it's pretty hard to put the bow lines on yourself, so don't be shy to ask for help -- Baltic sailors take each other's lines in this situation.

Thank you!

[_andi_]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

wind against tide.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. It can really ruin your day, even in conditions like 5-6bft, for example on the elbe. On the upside it can save the day on calm days, 5kn true can easily become like 12+kn apparent if you're beating into the wind while the tide pushes you.


And one example for "survival conditions": In '95 a wave rolled a 27,5m/90ish foot purpose build SAR cruiser near Borkum. Rolled as in full 360.



It's a beautiful place, unesco world heritage, ... and it can be explored safely. Just do your research/due diligence and bring enough time to wait out bad weather.



And SAR in germany is free of charge in any life threatening situation. Don't hesitate to call them. If it's not life threatening you'll get some sort of donation proposal and they're basically charging at cost.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by _andi_

. . . And one example for "survival conditions": In '95 a wave rolled a 27,5m/90ish foot purpose build SAR cruiser near Borkum. Rolled as in full 360.. .

Note well!

The North Sea is one of the gnarliest pieces of water in the world outside of the Southern Ocean. The reason for that is the North Sea is very shallow, and slopes up towards the German Bight. Horrendous weather blows down out of the Arctic or storms following the jetstream across the high North Atlantic, large waves built up over thousands of miles of fetch meet the shallow bottom and stand up! If that were not bad enough, there are very strong tides in the North Sea so frequent wind against tide effect. The Germans have a saying "Nordsee ist Mordsee" -- the North Sea is the Murder Sea. There are conditions there which are not safe in any kind of vessel except maybe a submarine, and I even wonder about that.

Fortunately crossing the North Sea is only a day or three depending on the route, so it's possible to pick a weather window. Do so with care! And don't do what I did -- need to get across the North Sea one year, and facing F9 and F10 for the whole 10 days of the forecasts, I chose a weather window where it was supposed to be F8 -- normally OK in my boat if the wind is behind the beam. Well, the second day out, the wind exceeded the forecasts, and the seas were already big from days of nonstop storms. The big seas began to break, and we got knocked down, and were lucky to get to port without major damage or injury. I won't make that mistake again!

[SV-Viento]

very helpful thread. Thanks to all who have contributed. 23 mnths (but who’s counting ) until we start our adventure in this area. Again - MANY Thanks

[_andi_]

And to end on a high note: The wadden sea is a beautiful place literally sailed by thousands of boats. Random pic from the old railway to Wangerooge and my buddies Vulcain Transat.

[_andi_]

Disclaimer: If your boat has like a 2m keel, either now exactly what you're doing or just pass by. There are muddy harbours where you can dry out despite the keel.



If you want to play it safe, in Germany the follwing Harbors are safe (from the top of my head, there might be more) Helgoland, Cuxhaven, Brunsbüttel (after the Kiel Canal Lock), Glücksstadt, Wedel (called Hamburg Yacht Harbor, also it's technically not Hamburg), Hamburg (Rüschkanal and City Marina).

[carstendenmark]

Trente, I guess that you still have a good memory of Denmark though...

Well, OP, after finishing the South Funen seas, on your way east you could stop at Langø, the harbour west of Nakskov, Lolland.


This area is called the South Sea Islands of Denmark.
Nakskov Fjord is even a natural habitat.
Friendly, cheap, and well - I'm here.
Stay for a day, and I'll show you the Island.

Please call a day or two before your arrival, +45 60662960

[EdenRose]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

Trente, I guess that you still have a good memory of Denmark though...

Well, OP, after finishing the South Funen seas, on your way east you could stop at Langø, the harbour west of Nakskov, Lolland.


This area is called the South Sea Islands of Denmark.
Nakskov Fjord is even a natural habitat.
Friendly, cheap, and well - I'm here.
Stay for a day, and I'll show you the Island.

Please call a day or two before your arrival, +45 60662960

Will do…. Thank you