And so it continues... This time: V.A.T.

[nic26]

Maybe this gives you more info. To my knowledge the buying contract has to show "VAT payed" to confirm that the boat is OK.

See:
EU VAT Regulations

[Polux]

Originally Posted by reed1v

The worst that can happen is you have to pay VAT based on the boat's value when new. That probably will not exceed what you paid for the boat, so just buy it and be prepared to pay an equivalent amount for VAT.

No the VAT is payed on the actual value of the boat.

I believe the paper you have is good for France but I doubt it will be accepted outside of it. Why do you not maintain the French flag?

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by reed1v

The worst that can happen is you have to pay VAT based on the boat's value when new. That probably will not exceed what you paid for the boat, so just buy it and be prepared to pay an equivalent amount for VAT.

Depending on the value of the boat, that could equate to ten of thousands of euros.... If VAT hasn't been paid on the boat, the current owner will know this, know their time is running out (is it 6 months a non-VAT paid boat gets in Europe? Maybe it's 2 years), and this is definitely a bargaining chip - NOT something the OP should have to pay in addition to the purchase price of the boat.

(FWIW, having visited the UK, France, Spain, and Portugal last year, not one country checked the VAT status of our boat. Customs gave our paperwork a cursory glance but never enquired directly. I had my original BOS amended to include the line "VAT paid").

n

[sailormed]

Originally Posted by Polux

No the VAT is payed on the actual value of the boat.

I believe the paper you have is good for France but I doubt it will be accepted outside of it. Why do you not maintain the French flag?

VAT is a european wide implementation. The French paper will be accepted by all European Community VAT authorities. The proposed document is ligitimate if established by the official French Authorities.

[Maver]

The French form you showed has nothing to do with VAT. Vat is only to prove with the original invoice, mostly from the first owner. Let this item be part of your negotiation; the problem has to be solved by the seller!
The conformation of deletion is nessesary to registrate your ship in Germany or other country.
The information from Lizzy seems to be correct.

Regards,

Martin

[Polux]

Originally Posted by sailormed

VAT is a european wide implementation. The French paper will be accepted by all European Community VAT authorities. The proposed document is ligitimate if established by the official French Authorities.

Yes VAT is common to all EU countries (with different values) but what makes prove of that is the original sales document, not a paper wrote in French and passed by the French customs.

Do you think the French authorities would accept a similar paper wrote in Croat or Bulgarian?

You may be right or not regarding the validity of that paper regarding all members of EU but I bet that its acceptance (if it is accepted) would not be without problems, unless the boat remains with the French banner.

[Simonsays]

i'd not continue to deal with such a broker t.b.h.
this is exactly why you deal with a broker in the first place. if he is not capable of doing his job, he is of no use.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by nic26

Maybe this gives you more info. To my knowledge the buying contract has to show "VAT payed" to confirm that the boat is OK.

See:
EU VAT Regulations

Old information. Even shows the 19% VAT rate for the Netherlands - that was a long time ago. In 2012, it became 21% and it still is ...

Whatever the contract says is of 0 interest to customs. Either you have the paperwork or you don't
EU law states "the paperwork" is the original invoice.
Without that, it'll be difficult to get the VAT declaration form, or whatever it's called in English.

[MonsterJoe]

Thanks a lot for all the great info. With all of this, I think we can figure the rest out

[MonsterJoe]

Originally Posted by Polux

No the VAT is payed on the actual value of the boat.

I believe the paper you have is good for France but I doubt it will be accepted outside of it. Why do you not maintain the French flag?

Because we only got financing in Germany and they require us to fly it under the DE flag. (Also there seems to be an annual tax on boats in FR, so that's another advantage)

[MonsterJoe]

As an update... The broker says that in case VAT is not paid, he is going to do so out of the money he keeps in escrow.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by MonsterJoe

As an update... The broker says that in case VAT is not paid, he is going to do so out of the money he keeps in escrow.

Presumably he's cleared this with the seller? Keep us posted!

n

[Maver]

Originally Posted by MonsterJoe

As an update... The broker says that in case VAT is not paid, he is going to do so out of the money he keeps in escrow.

And that's the way the broker has do; a lot of buyers are getting the wrong advise by brokers in case of VAT and registratie matters. As an example the text "Vat paid" without any form of proof on the invoice offers nothing.

[TrentePieds]

This whole discussion seems utterly confusing, so somebody educate me, please!


VAT (Value Added Tax) in Europe is, like the Canadian Goods and Services Tax (GST) a CONSUMPTION tax. It is predicated on the notion that any product goes through a series of “owners” as it proceeds through the manufacturing process. At each change of hands along that chain of owners the buyer pays tax at whatever rate obtains. The seller MUST collect the tax and then remit the amount collected to the government after deducting therefrom the aggregate of taxes he, some time before, paid on the components of the article sold. The calculation of amounts in any business is dead simple: Remittance = Total tax collected during the accounting period — Total tax paid to suppliers during the accounting period . The terminology for the latter is “Input Tax Credits”


Ultimately, therefore, the consumer (end user) gets to pay the entire whack, while businesses along the trail of manufacture get to recover whatever taxes they have paid along the way.


Second hand goods are as subject to tax at the time of sale as are other goods. The kicker is that the end user has no way of claiming Input Tax Credits because he does not resell. In practice this all means that the invoice or Bill of Sale for EVERY change of ownership must show that VAT has been charged by the seller and must show the actual amount of VAT collected by the seller calculated at the rate obtaining in the country in which the transaction takes place. The seller's invoice will most certainly show the amount of VAT charged, for that is the proof of his entitlement to Input Tax Credits!



A bland wording such as “VAT paid” cuts no ice. The VAT amount charged must be shown.


Am I wrong about that?


TrentePieds

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Second hand goods are as subject to tax at the time of sale as are other goods. // In practice this all means that the invoice or Bill of Sale for EVERY change of ownership must show that VAT has been charged by the seller

Nope. You pay tax on new boats when they are first purchased from the manufacturer (or dealer or whatever company is selling the boat).

When a private owner sells a boat (or car, book, bike or whatever) to a new private owner, there is no VAT involved.
Which explains why you need the original invoice, which will have the amount of VAT paid on it.

As long as that VAT was paid in Europe, you're fine for the entire EU.