American buying a sailboat in Italy, changing Flag?

[Sand crab]

Bump. The basic questions are still unanswered.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Bump. The basic questions are still unanswered.

My understanding, non EU resident cannot flag a boat in an EU country, Holland maybe an exception......

I know A Canadian can buy a VAT paid EU boat in the EU, reflag Canadian and not need to leave the EU......Don't have a clue about the USA, but it should be the same.....

But the OP could ask an official in the EU for the answer to his questions, just don't expect one answer, Friday's answer could be different than Tuesday's......

[joed]

Well i think i got it, you can buy and leave the EU flag but you must have a domicile address so that if they send you something etc etc. But will need to 100% confirm this tomorrow.

[fcftampa]

Agree, lots of legalese but no answer.
Maybe if the question is broken down into simpler parts.

1• Can an American (non-dual citizen) own an Italian flagged boat?

possible answer: txs @nwdiver
non EU resident cannot flag a boat in an EU country

2• If so, will a VAT paid boat with an Italian flag remain VAT paid when bought by non EU citizen?

3• If no American owned yacht with Italian flagged boat possible, then which EU allows a US person a EU flag?

possible answer: txs @nwdiver
Holland maybe an exception......

[joed]

okay like i said will get confirmation tomorrow but in the mean time
on 1. it is yes but you need a domicile address or agent cus you must put down a contact address.
2. VAT is paid, keep the bill of sale that show proof of said payment. That is all that you need unless you export it then bring it back in after 3yrs, and reflag it with eu, you may have to pay VAT again..
3. I believe 1. answers that question

simple right??

[letsgetsailing3]

I'm following with interest, but still don't see the answer to my question.

If, as an American citizen, you buy a VAT-paid boat and then document it in the U.S., does it lose it's "VAT paid" status? Or do you need to register the boat in Italy?

Seems like a simple enough question. I saw what Black Eagle wrote, but it seemed as if some people disagreed with it.

[Yellow bird]

I think that the best and simple thing to do is to buy a no-Vat paid boat, in Med there are a lot of it, because charter company don't pay VAT on boat,
register with your US Flag, and then, after 18 months in EU, pay for VAT, so you are sure you can keep her in EU for unlimited time.

The biggest problem in EU is the interpretation of the rules, each customs officer of each EU country interpret the rules in different ways,
I know that it could sound strange to no EU citizens but it is!

So it can happen that, even if what joed said "VAT is paid, keep the bill of sale that show proof of said payment. That is all that you need..." it could be right, you can waste (at least) a lot of time in paperwork and burocracy (if not even with the boat under seizure)
So I advise to have at one's fingertips also a copy of the exact article of the law in question (that I can't find, but I'm not a lawyer)

[Greg K]

Boy, it's amazing how much misunderstanding there is about the VAT issue. Let's see if I can give you all some simple clear answers.

1. First VAT: If a boat, regardless of flag, remains in the EU for more than 18 months VAT must be paid. Reflagging the boat has no impact on VAT status. So, yes, an American can (and should) put a boat purchased in the EU into US Coast Guard Documentation. The VAT status remains AS LONG AS THE BOAT REMAINS IN THE EU even when resold or reflagged.

The only exception to the 18 months rule is if the buyer is an EU citizen or resident. In that case VAT must be paid immediately upon purchase.

2. Vessel registration ( flagging): Only EU citizens or EU residents can register their boat in an EU member country. Dual EU/other country citizens may do so also, but there are complication. The first complication is CE building certification for non-EU built boats. The second is sailing credentials. Thus, in brief, keeping US, Canadian or any non-EU registration is the best way to go, especially with non-EU built boats.

3. Shengen rules: These rules limit the stay of a non-EU citizen to only a 90 day stays in the EU zone, regardless of which EU country. This has nothing to do with VAT regulations and only applies to skipper/crew. Thus, you may keep your VAT paid, US flagged boat indefinitely in the EU, but can only use it for three months out of any six month period.

I hope that helps.
Greg

[Sand crab]

Thanks Greg. Does a boat lose VAT paid status when out of the EU for 3 years. And do the overseas territories count as being in the EU?

[Greg K]

Both good questions, Sandcrab. A boat does indeed lose VAT paid status after a certain period of time out of the EU, but I can not say with any certainty how long.

Also, I do not know whether overseas territories ( for example, the French overseas territories ( or provinces?) in the Caribbean) count as being in the EU for VAT purposes. My guess would be no, but it is only a guess based on the presumption that they are peripheral to the EU member states and, thus, are not subject to the same laws.

[Sundancer370]

JOED,
Contact me I had a similar scenario.
(520) 471 7200. (USA)

[rasmuscustom]

Hello Everybody, thanks for a very informative thread. Can I get a direct answers to my question please. I’m dual citizen us/Denmark with codice fiscale/residenzia in Italy.
Backstory: I already own an under 10meter speed boat with an 40hp outboard, I have the original “pink slip” of the engine and its ensured, so legally I’m good within the 3 miles zone.
The 40hp is not getting me anywhere.
I’m not much interested in the VAT situation, but more interested in what I can legally drive on the water as a recreational boater.
I’m going to cancel my residenzia, so I’m only double citizen, I want to take the US approach if stopped in the ocean. (The fines is 2500euro per boater max 8500euro) if not holding a italian license to drive boat over 40hp.
I would continue having a mailing adress in Italy.

What can I do?
Can I own and drive my boat with a 250hp outboard with my US citizenship (since there’s no limitation in USA)?
What documents would I have to have onboard and would it be legal?
Best Regards

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by rasmuscustom

Can I own and drive my boat with a 250hp outboard with my US citizenship (since there’s no limitation in USA)?
What documents would I have to have onboard and would it be legal?

The last time I asked this question, I was told I should get the ICC (International Certificate of Competence) of my country of choice to avoid problems in Italy (specifically Sardinia in my case). The big advantage is, these plastic cards will resolve the same question in all EU-waters (including Croatia) too.

I don't know if there are some loop-holes which might apply in your case, but in the long run, this is probably the easiest way.

[rasmuscustom]

Extremely helpful thank you, I’ll let you know if I find any loop holes. Best Rasmus Rasmus

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by rasmuscustom

Hello Everybody, thanks for a very informative thread. Can I get a direct answers to my question please. I’m dual citizen us/Denmark with codice fiscale/residenzia in Italy.
Backstory: I already own an under 10meter speed boat with an 40hp outboard, I have the original “pink slip” of the engine and its ensured, so legally I’m good within the 3 miles zone.
The 40hp is not getting me anywhere.
I’m not much interested in the VAT situation, but more interested in what I can legally drive on the water as a recreational boater.
I’m going to cancel my residenzia, so I’m only double citizen, I want to take the US approach if stopped in the ocean. (The fines is 2500euro per boater max 8500euro) if not holding a italian license to drive boat over 40hp.
I would continue having a mailing adress in Italy.

What can I do?
Can I own and drive my boat with a 250hp outboard with my US citizenship (since there’s no limitation in USA)?
What documents would I have to have onboard and would it be legal?
Best Regards

If you maintain residency in Italy, presumably you will be obligated to the requirements of residents so as to garner the privilege of residency. Mailing address is often a component of proof of residency but is not by itself a qualifier of residency. Residency is were you abode, not where you have post and parcels delivered for your convenience.

You will have to comply with the regulations of the country attached to the flag of the boat.

To charter a boat The International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft, or ICC (International Certificate of Competence), is accepted as evidence of competence in most EU and Mediterranean waters. It proves that the holder has undergone formal training and has the necessary boating skills to manage a vessel in international waters.

ICC training includes first aid and VHF radio operator qualifications.

The ICC is formally accepted in the following UNECE countries that have adopted Resolution 14 & 40:

Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Switzerland and United Kingdom.

The following UNECE member states have not accepted the Resolution 14 nor the Resolution 40:

Greece, Moldova, Portugal, Spain, Russian Federation, Serbia, Sweden, Ukraine and United States.

Despite the fact that some countries do not formally accept the ICC, it is very often sufficient documentation to rent or charter a boat, as it meets EU standards and can be seen as an equivalent to national licenses.

Certificate of Competence
International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft (known in the UK as the International Certificate of Competence or ICC) was a European Union resolution (Resolution 40) introduced to impose legislation on powerboat owners and drivers. It proves skills in helmsmanship, navigation and collision avoidance. Italy is a signatory to Resolution 40 and requires an ICC. Those who already have some boating experience skippering British flagged yachts in Italy can follow a two day course provided by the Royal Yachting Association (RYA). The ICC is free for Royal Yachting Association members.


Resolution 40: Click here

https://unece.org/icc-resolution-no-40

https://unece.org/transport/publicat...ators-pleasure