Warning about Ireland

[nextis12]

Originally Posted by sailingunity

This is an insane comparison, the population of the US in 1918 was 100 million. We are now pushing 350 million. Not even apples to apples. Comparing deaths is another one of those scare tactics the media and government will use. Less than 1/3 of the death rate of the Spanish flu over the same time period, but with much harsher measures and lockdowns, and a vaccine, has it been worth it? The worst part is what the OP said, people treat you like you aren't human anymore.

So what’s your point, don’t do anything until deaths adjusted for population growth are exceeded?

Agree with the you about not being treated as humans. Why would people not do something as simple as wear a mask and get a shot to protect the larger community. The lack of decent basic human behavior shown towards other is appalling.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

All right, champ, let's hear your plan for easy compliance.


You are leaving Stromness bound for Dublin, where one of your crew has a much-needed doctor's appointment.



A different crew member is not vaccinated -- not because he's an anti-vaxxer but because he's been sailing and out of his home country for longer than the vaccines have been available and has not been able to get vaxxed in other countries.


The regulations require you to arrive with PLF filled out within a certain window (usually 48 hours; don't know about Ireland) and a covid test for the one unvaxxed crewman taken no later than 48 hours before arrival.


These rules were invented for airline passengers and are impossible to fulfill for yachts on long passages. But impossible only in the letter of the rules; the spirit can be fulfilled easily with a tiny bit of flexibility on the part of the authorities.



You have been cruising all over Europe for the last year and in similar situations the authorities were always friendly, flexible and helpful, allowed tests to be taken on the spot, and helped with the PLF (often necessary since many of these forms don't contemplate pleasure vessels).


So what would you have done differently from this guy?


With hindsight he should have called ahead before leaving, but without the benefit of hindsight, how would you know you would be treated so differently than other places? Another variant might have been to break up the trip and stop in another Scottish port less than 48 hours from Dublin, but they were in a hurry to make that doctor's appointment, and anyway had been standing off well offshore for safety's sake.

Ok champ, let's start with some real pity for the doctors appointment. It must have been really urgent if he decided to sail to a different country.

The choice of exit port is not whereever you want. They could have exited from a port where it was easy for them to comply. I have sailed 100s of miles many times to be able to legally clear out of a country. I'd say it is very common to do among cruisers ( maybe not so in Europe).

The guys been travelling too lomg to be able to get a vaccine, nonsense. If he wanted a vaccine then he should have figured out how to get one. If he doesn't want one, then he needs to deal with the consequences. It isn't upto other countries to relax their rules for him(or her)

The cell service works fine as you approach land champ, they could have easily filed the required forms.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

Well, not quite.

Part of the problem we have is that there is simply so much not known in terms of what is going on. On the one hand, the guidelines/rules would appear to make things almost impossible (see quote above), on the other and in practice I don't and didn't see any impact at all on freedom of movement within the EU.

Touring Italy and the various islands this summer we were not asked once about anything related to covid. But I did maintain the log book, had tests done if needed, in case we were asked whence we came, but if I hadn't known there was a 'pandemic' going on, it would have been a regular summer. Apart from the introduction of the ridiculously named green pass in Italy which was/is required to go anywhere inside.

There is a lot of fear mongering going on, everywhere, and this really needs to stop. But don't forget, people in fear are far easier to govern & control than people without and even thinking a bit for themselves too. (And thinking for yourself does not necessarily mean running to the nearest pharmacy to get vaxxed.)

In order to get a commercial ferry between corfu and lefkas I was required by a dock side policeman ( who was armed )to show a EU COVID pass.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Dockhead,

Sorry for the problems encountered by your friends. Years ago I ran into a Canadian border guard who randomly pulled me out of line and gave me a shakedown that took hours. I had the car packed with summer vacation stuff they pulled out and then just walked away leaving me the total mess to repack.

My only thought is that your friends got stopped by some poorly trained and over zealous irregulars, who typically dealt with a different “cliental.”

But, frankly, that someone was poorly treated is not surprising considering some of the covid attitudes displayed on this forum and elsewhere. These attitudes give license to others with power issues to act out.

I am sorry you were treated with disrespect here on this forum for your post.

This is a reasonable set of comments.


However, in reading this thread from the beginning, I am kinda astonished by Dockhead's OP and followups. For a contributor who is usually on point and thorough, I was amazed at how much and how many followups were required for specificity. Example? Where they came from and how long at sea.


The OPO was: OH, those horrible Irish border guards. After questions about the length of the voyage from Scotland, only then do we learn how long and from where.


I think a lot of the push back may have been from an incomplete original description.

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by boatman61

More like Profit driven fear mongering and the chance of a grab at increased powers.

The purpose of government is to get control of your life and it's probably the most successful business on the planet, it's everywhere and can take what ever it want and is constantly growing. I laugh a bit when people claim government is incompetent, I mean that's absurd. But I understand why they do it, I get it, they believe they should be the beneficiary and when they are not the beneficiary they call government incompetent.

Government is the beneficiary. Government is there to serve government.

It's also managed to convince a substantial part of the population that it's in their best interest to want more government, not less but MORE of it. I wish I was kidding but I'm not. These people truly believe that government will solve all their problems when in fact it's causing most of their problems in the first place.

Yes, we do need some form of government sure, but it has to be kept as small as possible. What we have today is a monster that is devouring everything in its path.

I am pretty sure that once this virus nonsense is over, it will have gained even more control over peoples lives than it had before.


Added.
One of the things I love so much about sailing is that I am under less control, I have more freedom. I can pull anchor and go wherever I want, I don't need a license to sail etc.

[hpeer]

Stu,

True and thanks for the recognition. But this is a forum not a masters thesis. We should read one another with some sympathy, compassion and tolerance. Great writers are rare because it is a damn hard thing to do. A few polite questions would have sufficed to fill in the gaps.

It is not that the OP’s original post was incomplete of all possible details. It is more that it was jumped upon by the Covid Compliance Brigade.

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Stu,

True and thanks for the recognition. But this is a forum not a masters thesis. We should read one another with some sympathy, compassion and tolerance. Great writers are rare because it is a damn hard thing to do. A few polite questions would have sufficed to fill in the gaps.

It is not that the OP’s original post was incomplete of all possible details. It is more that it was jumped upon by the Covid Compliance Brigade.

The useful idiots and bootlicker Brigade are always quick to lash out and attack people that they perceive to be either an existential threat or a problem to their ego invested warped version of reality. i.e. the government narrative they've been spoon fed 24/7 for the past 18 months.

I swear they will not stop until no one can travel, do trade, work etc without a medical ID. It's crazy. Bat **** crazy.

[Mike OReilly]

After reading all the back and forth, it seems to me we have a situation of a border officer following the letter of the law, and choosing not to exercise his/her discretion regarding the entry requirements. A blanket warning to avoid an area seems like an over-reaction. A more accurate caution would be to tell cruises to follow the letter of the law when attempting to enter Ireland.

Ireland's entry requirements are quite clear, and easily accessible. It appears this crew, and DH himself, have only encountered border officers willing to bend the rules, recognizing that rationally there is no measurable risk from this one individual. This appears to have set up an expectation in the mind's of this crew (and DH), that all border officials, and indeed all countries, should bend their rules in the same way. This might be logical and sensible, but as we all know, laws and their enforcement don't always make sense.

It's often noted here that cruisers have no right to visit other countries. It is a privilege. And as such, we must follow the laws of the land we are visiting. In this case, the boat attempted to get an exception to the entry rules, and was turned away.

As to the rest of the narrative, and the speculation around time and distance and cell coverage and armed guards... I leave that to when the movie comes out.


ADD: For me, this has NOTHING to do with Covid-19. It's a case of a clear legal requirement that a cruiser chose not to follow. Whether we think it is an unnecessary law is irrelevant. It's not our country.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

This is a reasonable set of comments.


However, in reading this thread from the beginning, I am kinda astonished by Dockhead's OP and followups. For a contributor who is usually on point and thorough, I was amazed at how much and how many followups were required for specificity. Example? Where they came from and how long at sea.


The OPO was: OH, those horrible Irish border guards. After questions about the length of the voyage from Scotland, only then do we learn how long and from where.


I think a lot of the push back may have been from an incomplete original description.

Not to mention description of non existent “armed border guards “ a group that simply doesn’t exist in Ireland.

If somebody sailing into Ireland ends up in confrontation with armed police ( ie the rapid reaction unit ) then there’s way more to this story then meets the eye.

Also interesting this is not being debated on any Irish sailing forum I visit.

[goboatingnow]

Note we have no dates on this escapade

Here’s is the comment from Dun Laoghaire marina ( which would be used for Dublin ) as off 21 Apr

““In general, as we in Dun Laoghaire Marina do not allow quarantining aboard at the marina, we are politely declining any requests for visits from foreign-owned boats,” general manager Paal Janson says.

While the Department of Transport “are happy for the marina to take responsibility for issuing or even collecting passenger locator forms”, DL Marina management have declined to take on this responsibility, he adds.

Other ports may have different arrangements, and interested parties are recommended to seek written consent from the relevant harbour/port authority. “It may be no harm to receive advice from MaritimeCovid@transport.gov.ie,” Janson adds.

But as the official line remains ‘essential travel only’, he is of the opinion that “holidaying yachtsmen are not high on the list of priorities” for Transport officials for the time being.”

Note the comment that the forms could have been handled by the marina

[Shanachie]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

These kinds of attitudes lead to all kinds of fear-driven aggressive behavior.



Bad on Ireland, and bad on you.


No one demanded being let in against a rule requiring everyone to be vaccinated -- where did you get that idea? The person expected to be allowed to test on arrival since it was impossible to test within the two day window before, since they had been at sea longer than that. As was allowed in a friendly way by every other European country they visited.

At this point, any medically fit European or American who is not vaccinated is in that state due to choice, not because they were unable to get a stab.


So it's bad on the person you know who didn't get a vaccine.


I live in Florida. I've seen firsthand what happens when governments take the "personal choice" line and allow unvaccinated people to roam around at will.


We have hundreds dead a day -- a day -- from covid, and the vast majority of them are people who took the "personal choice" option.



So, again, good for Ireland. This pandemic would be much more controlled, and life would be more back to normal, if governments and businesses were tougher on people who insist on being a threat to public health.

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

At this point, any medically fit European or American who is not vaccinated is in that state due to choice, not because they were unable to get a stab.


So it's bad on the person you know who didn't get a vaccine.


I live in Florida. I've seen firsthand what happens when governments take the "personal choice" line and allow unvaccinated people to roam around at will.


We have hundreds dead a day -- a day -- from covid, and the vast majority of them are people who took the "personal choice" option.



So, again, good for Ireland. This pandemic would be much more controlled, and life would be more back to normal, if governments and businesses were tougher on people who insist on being a threat to public health.

Let's make something perfectly clear.

There is no such thing as public health. There is only health of individuals. The rest is statistics.

Of course, if government were to actually focus on the health of individuals opposed to 'public health' they would not be able to what they are currently doing in the first place now would they, funny how that works.

Originally Posted by Shanachie

I live in Florida. I've seen firsthand what happens when governments take the "personal choice" line and allow unvaccinated people to roam around at will.

The constitution, which is the law of the land, does not allow government to impose an injunction like this in the first place. It's a MASSIVE unconstitutional injunction onto the people.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In order to get a commercial ferry between corfu and lefkas I was required by a dock side policeman ( who was armed )to show a EU COVID pass.

I was responding to this statement:

"All over Europe there have been and still are massive restrictions on entry by private yacht"

I wouldn't say this too loud, some restrictions? yes, massive restrictions? not really.

Commercial ferries fall into the category public transport where indeed the screw is tightening.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by hpeer

....We should read one another with some sympathy, compassion and tolerance. Great writers are rare because it is a damn hard thing to do. A few polite questions would have sufficed to fill in the gaps.

It is not that the OP’s original post was incomplete of all possible details. It is more that it was jumped upon by the Covid Compliance Brigade.

Exactly.

I have been on websites like CF since last century and there are always trouble some people. But CF was, and still is, the only site where I have had to use the Ignore feature.

There really is no need to be so rude over a simple situation. Not sure tolerance really ever existed, history is full of intolerance, but it is all to easy to be rude, or as some of my family members would say, show your a..., on the Internet.

I still wonder if the boat put into Northern Ireland and not Ireland.

Later,
Dan

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dannc

Exactly.

I have been on websites like CF since last century and there are always trouble some people. But CF was, and still is, the only site where I have had to use the Ignore feature.

There really is no need to be so rude over a simple situation. Not sure tolerance really ever existed, history is full of intolerance, but it is all to easy to be rude, or as some of my family members would say, show your a..., on the Internet.

I still wonder if the boat put into Northern Ireland and not Ireland.

Later,
Dan

The point is that this story simply doesn’t ring true. There are no armed border police in Ireland and to be met by any armed force on a yachts entry would be regarded as a big news story. ( ie it would make the evening tv news )

Secondly everything is a simple phone call away using a mobile phone. To come from the Orkney’s where a simple phone call to whatever marina they were visiting in Ireland would have apprised them of all the facts.

Not to mention sailing non stop round the top of Scotland and halfway down the Irish Sea non stop. ??

It just doesn’t make sense. Why would someone seek the police to meet them on arrival what information do they possess that makes them request the police ( who by and large have nothing to do with immigration in Ireland that’s a civil department. ( you’ll notice this on arrival in Ireland. In many countries the person checking your passport is a police or border guard. In Ireland it’s a civil servant.

As a resident this story doesn’t make sense.