The Reality of Living in Australia and Covid

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Medical from what I understand has always required its workers to have had certain vaccinations as a condition of employment.

Travelling to other countries has also had vaccine requirements as condition of entry.

What logical reason is there for some of you losing your **** now?

(disclaimer: I am not an anti-vaxxer)

Choice. I might opt not to work in certain sectors and I might not travel to certain countries if I don't want to adhere to mentioned conditions.

I resent the fact that I may have to take a (new) vaccine to (fully) participate in public life. I resent it even more that my kids have to do this to go to university even though (and this is now becoming more evident) the risk presented by the vaccine to them is greater than the risk presented by the disease (especially for boys, even though both risks are, so far, small but in any case not known yet).

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

(disclaimer: I am not an anti-vaxxer)

Choice. I might opt not to work in certain sectors and I might not travel to certain countries if I don't want to adhere to mentioned conditions.

I resent the fact that I may have to take a (new) vaccine to (fully) participate in public life. I resent it even more that my kids have to do this to go to university even though (and this is now becoming more evident) the risk presented by the vaccine to them is greater than the risk presented by the disease (especially for boys, even though both risks are, so far, small but in any case not known yet).

As a generalisation, I tend to agree with the pro choice stance. Yet there are limits.

I resent having a virus like Covid circulating in the community, I resent the devastation it causes yet here we are. No point wailing about it, time to suck it up and move on. Sort of like "Keep Calm and Covid On".

I also resent having to stop at red light when there is no other traffic around but perhaps that is too much thread drift .

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Wottie
Regarding mandatory vaccination, this is from the Vic government website:

“Workers required to be vaccinated
The following workers will be required to show evidence of their vaccination to their employer by a certain date in order to continue working.
* Workers in residential aged care facilities
* Workers at construction sites
* Workers in healthcare settings
* Workers at school, childcare and early education services (plus outside school hours care services)”
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/i...-be-vaccinated

At the stage when 80% of adults have been fully vaccinated in Victoria (indicative date 5th November 2021) only fully vaccinted workers can go to work. This makes it at least mandatory in the short term, particularly for anyone in the hospitality industry and other jobs where working from home is not possible:
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/victorias-roadmap

Regarding education next year it may be that vaccination is being required for students is only being discussed. I can’t find a government link to attach, however, The University of Melbourne has already issued this:
“the University is making COVID-19 vaccinations a requirement for attending our campuses to minimise the risk of COVID-19 to our community. This decision is based on public health advice and is aligned to the Victorian Government’s roadmap, which currently states that onsite learning and work can re-commence for people who are fully vaccinated from 5 November. From this date, all students, staff, contractors and visitors attending our campuses will be required to be fully vaccinated. ”.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsroo...n-requirements

SWL

I know you know this but maybe it isn't clear for all readers.

Victoria is only a part of Australia and their laws don't apply to most Australians. One of the many reasons I have never considered living in Victoria is I have always felt their lawmakers are over the top when it came to restrictive regulations. In a sense, I vote with my feet.

I don't see (yet?) the rest of Australia following Victoria's lead on "mandatory vaccination". I not even sure it can be considered as any more 'mandatory' as all the other restrictions on employment in general.

As an example, I hold a federally issued licence which allows to work on and certify an aircraft is safe to fly. There was a library shelf full restrictions on me when I went to work. Should a covid vaccination be added to the list? I dunno but it makes sense to me. Are all these restrictions 'mandatory'? Well they are if I want to throw a spanner or wield a pair of side cutters on the kite but otherwise no.

Maybe the other states will benefit from the teachers exiting Victoria - oh, wait the borders are closed

Of course many Victorians do think they are the epicentre of Australia and the rest of us find it useful not to destroy this illusion

[CatNewBee]

We are living now 2 years with C19, we have found effective treatments, at least used successfully in poorer countries with less vaccinations. The catastrophe is produced by reluctance to cure or treat people before they need ventillators etc. Media, governments, regulatory bodies and big pharma are censoring scientists, frontline doctors and private persons if they publish success stories, medical trials and efficacy data on conventional medications for early treatment. Countries like India, Mexico have successfully used home treatment kits to curb hospitalization and deaths. Yet our leaders focus on getting everyone shot instead of treated, despite there are effective protocols. They even spread misinformation and spite, twist facts and ridicule opposition.

How could anione trust such bullys?

The main problem why covid is so deadly and contagious is the spike proteine it produces, that causes the cytokine storm as a response of the immune system and leads to blood clothing in the lungs causing respiratory issues, affecting the brain (long covid), and heart inflammation. The very same protein, that is produced by the 'vaccines'.

There are ways to prevent this by using blood thinner, well known from other diseases, using steroides to supress a too heavy immune response, to use anti-viral drugs like IVM and Hydroxy chloroquine. Even Doxycycline, an antibioticum, is quite useful as chemical early treatment to prevent secondary infections while the immune system is busy fighting covid.

Early treatment reduces the viral load, the time and severity of the infection and prevents deaths.

Instead of using all options we are all mad about injections, we divide people, pressure them to get injected - regardless if they are at risk or not - and spread misinformation, like the unvaccinated are dangerous for the vaccinated.

Open your eyes and stop paroting propaganda and hystery.
The virus has without treatment and vaccines a survival rate of 99%, Kids usually are even asymptomatic, young adults rarerly develop serious symptoms, and after thiss they all have natural immunity. Why would someone mandate additional shots into a immune person?

Let the science do their work, be controversal and work on solutions. Vaccines are not the only answer, the efficacy seems questionable, it does not prevent infections and doesnt stop the spread.

Use the vaccines targeted, to protect the vulnarable groups.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Ping
I don’t think your interpretation is correct.
The two Vic government web pages were seperate.

The first listed where vaccination was mandatory, full stop.

The second was the roadmap to opening where the restrictions at each stage may be only temporary. At the 80% double vaccinated stage estimated to occur on the 5th November nobody can work away from home unless double vaccinated. The website does not even exclude ”essential” workers. If you have a job where working from home is not an option (eg hospitality industry, retail, entertainment etc) does this not make vaccination essentially mandatory if you wish to work? Employers are unlikely to leave your job open if they need to replace you in the interim.

SWL

AhHa - tracked it down in the roadmap

'Phase C: 80% double dose
Indicative date: 5 November 2021

At 80% fully vaccinated, regional Victoria and Metro Melbourne come together under the same rules.

Work
Work from home if you can, but you can go to work if fully vaccinated.'

It will be interesting to see how they intend to police that across the thousands of small businesses, sole traders, etc.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

As a generalisation, I tend to agree with the pro choice stance. Yet there are limits.

I resent having a virus like Covid circulating in the community, I resent the devastation it causes yet here we are. No point wailing about it, time to suck it up and move on. Sort of like "Keep Calm and Covid On".

I also resent having to stop at red light when there is no other traffic around but perhaps that is too much thread drift .

If the UK is any indication to go by, this won’t be over once 80-90% of adults or 80-90% of over 12’s or even 80-90% of the entire population are vaccinated. Weeks ago it was estimated 94% of the entire population of the UK (not just adults) had antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Deaths are still around 2 per million per day. The virus has been unpredictable regarding how it affects communities, but this would translate to 50 deaths per day in Australia even once they achieve a similar level of immunity in the population.

Mandating vaccination for those not personally likely to become severely ill if infected because it is hoped this will stop the virus circulating is “dreamin’”.

SWL

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I know you know this but maybe it isn't clear for all readers.

Victoria is only a part of Australia and their laws don't apply to most Australians. One of the many reasons I have never considered living in Victoria is I have always felt their lawmakers are over the top when it came to restrictive regulations. In a sense, I vote with my feet.

I don't see (yet?) the rest of Australia following Victoria's lead on "mandatory vaccination". I not even sure it can be considered as any more 'mandatory' as all the other restrictions on employment in general.

As an example, I hold a federally issued licence which allows to work on and certify an aircraft is safe to fly. There was a library shelf full restrictions on me when I went to work. Should a covid vaccination be added to the list? I dunno but it makes sense to me. Are all these restrictions 'mandatory'? Well they are if I want to throw a spanner or wield a pair of side cutters on the kite but otherwise no.

Maybe the other states will benefit from the teachers exiting Victoria - oh, wait the borders are closed

Of course many Victorians do think they are the epicentre of Australia and the rest of us find it useful not to destroy this illusion

Just bide your time Wotty, just bide your time,
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...tion/100488412

I see that MONA is actually a mandate leader - whoodathunkit.
https://www.smh.com.au/culture/art-a...02-p58o79.html

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Of course many all Victorians do think they are the epicentre of Australia and the rest of us find it useful not to destroy this illusion

Fixed it

Originally Posted by Wotname

Victoria is only a part of Australia and their laws don't apply to most Australians. One of the many reasons I have never considered living in Victoria is I have always felt their lawmakers are over the top when it came to restrictive regulations. In a sense, I vote with my feet.

I agree not all states will follow, although QLD and WA are likely to, in my opinion. Vaccinations will soon be mandatory for truck drivers entering Queensland: https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/93353
The deadline for police officers to get vaccinated is just days away. Comments have been made that teachers and childcare workers will be the next group forced to get a COVID-19 jab.

I speculate NSW will be more reasonable. The premier is already indicating that the additional restrictions on the unvaccinated will drop in December.

Originally Posted by Wotname

I don't see (yet?) the rest of Australia following Victoria's lead on "mandatory vaccination".

Maybe not, but it will be interesting to see what happens when state borders eventually open and cases and deaths start spiking. I predict lockdowns will start occurring in all the states that have so far barely experienced any restrictions. How they will emerge from these is unpredictable.

SWL

[JPA Cate]

Here is an Australian Broadcasting Corporation link from today's news coverage:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-...tion/100505938

These are the kinds of situations that are being coped with during this phase of the epidemic. For the people not familiar with Australia, Woolworths is much like Safeway.

You can see there is plenty of room for changing the rules, none of it is cast in stone. The rule makers are chasing flexible situations, with an eye to getting hospitals back open for normal procedures as well as Covid care. I can certainly understand a hospital requiring its personnel to be vaccinated. It would eliminate the chance of being sued by people in the ER who pick it up there.



Ann

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I don't see (yet?) the rest of Australia following Victoria's lead on "mandatory vaccination".

I did a bit of digging. The other state that (wrongly) considers themselves the epicentre of Australia is in many ways following Victoria’s lead.

NSW regulations on mandatory vaccination are more extensive than I realised, although some apply only to specific local government areas. It is not clear to me if these requirements are permanent:
https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/heal...on-for-workers

This is the list of workers “required to have a COVID-19 vaccination before they can continue to work”:

- Authorised workers

- Aged care workers and others who work in or enter aged care facilities

- Health Care Workers

- Airport workers

- Construction workers

- Disability and early childhood care workers

- Quarantine workers

- Transport workers


Teachers have been left off the list as they have until the 8th of November to get vaccinated:
https://www.theeducatoronline.com/k1...eachers/278523

Vaccination is also mandatory for the police:
“The NSW Police Force has announced all employees will now be required to be vaccinated for COVID-19”:
https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/n...ZhbGw9MQ%3D%3D

And when retail and hospitality and entertainment venues and beauty services open when 70% of adults are fully vaccinated in NSW, all staff must also be vaccinated:
“hospitality businesses including pubs, restaurants and cafes, as well as retail settings, entertainment venues and health and beauty services, will be able to reopen after the 70% double dose vaccination target is achieved. For the businesses allowed to reopen, all staff and patrons must be fully vaccinated as a condition of operation…”


Interestingly COVID-19 vaccination is not mandatory for the Defence Force.

SWL

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There is a big difference between "strongly encouraging" and mandating vaccinations.

Agreed! There is also the question of mass mandating.

SWL makes a very articulate, very strong argument, which makes me think.


Although I'm you might say even a professional libertarian (former teach of Constitutional Law in law schools), I have not been nearly so much troubled as SWL about this particular issue and she helps me to see that I am strongly biased in favor of vaccination because I don't personally see any rational basis to not want to get vaccinated, even for someone who is low risk.


But this is really bias and so what SWL says is really worth listening to. Not sure I agree with it, but she makes a lot of good points.

Also agreed.

Society has a strong interest in people getting vaccinated. In the U.S., which otherwise has a pretty good system of protected constitutional rights, the states (not the federal government) have a clear right to force people to get vaccinated, as established in a landmark Supreme Court case which is still valid law (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)). Not just mandate vaccination as a condition of employment in certain industries, etc., but simply force everyone to get vaccinated and even put them in jail if they refuse.

I have always felt the US situation as you have described was over the top, way over the top and I can't (yet) think of a situation that demands such a response. I could never understand why the US considers itself to be such a 'free' society.

.........

I am however biased to the Aussie way - she'll be right mate!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

If the UK is any indication to go by, this won’t be over once 80-90% of adults or 80-90% of over 12’s or even 80-90% of the entire population are vaccinated. Weeks ago it was estimated 94% of the entire population of the UK (not just adults) had antibodies to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Deaths are still around 2 per million per day. The virus has been unpredictable regarding how it affects communities, but this would translate to 50 deaths per day in Australia even once they achieve a similar level of immunity in the population.

Mandating vaccination for those not personally likely to become severely ill if infected because it is hoped this will stop the virus circulating is “dreamin’”.

SWL

To be clear, I have never thought that vaccination would eradicate covid! I support high levels of vaccination to protect the health care industry etc. The UK experience suggest it does (at least to a degree).

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Just bide your time Wotty, just bide your time,
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...tion/100488412

I see that MONA is actually a mandate leader - whoodathunkit.
https://www.smh.com.au/culture/art-a...02-p58o79.html

All the movers and shakers are here now .

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Fixed it ......

That explains it

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

............
Vaccination is also mandatory for the police:
...........

Now if they could also introduce mandatory random drug testing for police. It is gobsmacking a high profile industry daily interacting with the public does not require the same degree of oversight as say the mining, transport and aviation industries. Off topic I guess.

[sailingabe41ds]

This vaccine is so "good?" thay in Wales UK 87% of hospitalized patients were vaccinated.
Keep in mind this vaccine was introduced to the public at large because it helped produce antibodies to the spike protein without knowing what the risks involved where.
That has never been done before....

Your body your choice...unless your body is owned by the State.

Abe

[sailingabe41ds]

OMG ...you can get anal restless syndrome from Covid vaccine.

Abe

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

This vaccine is so "good?" thay in Wales UK 87% of hospitalized patients were vaccinated.
......

I dunno about Wales but without more data, it is meaningless point.

If there was 100% vaccination rate in Wales and 5 people are hospitalised, then 100% of the patients will have been vaccinated. The 100% vaccination rate might have prevented 5,000 patients in hospital.

There will always be breakthrough covid cases.