The Reality of Living in Australia and Covid

[Dsanduril]

Here's an interesting article on variant mutations that may be of interest in the discussion. I'm not remotely qualified to judge its veracity/accuracy, but I find the discussion there and here quite interesting.

Massive numbers of new COVID–19 infections, not vaccines, are the main driver of new coronavirus variants

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

All I can say is there are a lot of “may”s and “maybe”s associated BOTH with any action or inaction associated with this pandemic. The optimal mode of management is simply not known.



As the world is hell bent on the unprecedented act of mass vaccinating those at negligible risk of severe illness, I very, very much hope my fears are unjustified and that you are correct.



SWL

I have been toying with writing an article about this.

Optimal mode of management I think IS known. The pandemic is not a situation where "in doubt, just do nothing", out of fear of doing wrong. It's more like a military decision, in war, where there are risks inherent in any decision, and you try to choose the optimum decision based on the best info you have about the risks and then also considering the mission objective.

Applying this military-style analysis here, you would simply ask - what is more likely to cause harm, and what decision will best promote achievement of the mission objective?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have been toying with writing an article about this.

Optimal mode of management I think IS known. The pandemic is not a situation where "in doubt, just do nothing", out of fear of doing wrong. It's more like a military decision, in war, where there are risks inherent in any decision, and you try to choose the optimum decision based on the best info you have about the risks and then also considering the mission objective.

Applying this military-style analysis here, you would simply ask - what is more likely to cause harm, and what decision will best promote achievement of the mission objective?

Medical care is not equivalent to military tactics.

Primum non nocere.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Medical care is not equivalent to military tactics.



Primum non nocere.



SWL

Sure, but a worldwide pandemic is NOT just "medical care". That's my whole point. There is no option of " do no harm" - millions of people have died and millions more will die one way or the other. You simply can't approach it from that point of view. In my humble opinion.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by boatman61

One has to wonder how many of these very vocal Pro Pfizer posters have invested in Big Pharma stocks to boost their incomes.. I reckon the main reason for the antagonism towards the 'at cost' Astra Zeneca vaccine in Europe was because unlike the German/US Pfizer, Moderna vaccines was because there were no billions to be made hence Macron and Merkel putting AZ down and to hell with the people.. as for the US.. they have ever put their interests first and like all the politicians, to hell with the Deplorables.

From an outsider looking at the EU vs AZ debate, it seemed to really be angst with the EU against the UK, i.e., Brexit related. With all of the yelling and screaming the EU was doing, and the announced lawsuit against AZ, I figured the EU made their noise to satisfy their stake holders, and would wait for time to pass, as would the lawsuit.

Read somewhere this week that the lawsuit between AZ and the EU has been settled. Surprise, Surprise, Surprise. The whole AZ vs EU angst was just noise but damaging noise never the less.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Funny how there's still tons of AZ floating around Europe and not being sent to the Third World, just being left to date expire..
What's the EU holding AZ to.. 200 million more doses by March but it won't use them.
Frickin Poli's..

But can the damage to AZ be repaired? Will people outside of the developed world want a vaccine that the EU said has problems? Will people trust a vaccine that the EU has surpluses of because Europeans won't/haven't taken the vaccine?

Later,
Dan

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by mjgill1

Stockholm syndrome?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-...liday/12648762

Well, if you have to go through 14 days of quarantine, the camp described in the article and its conditions is a heap more pleasant than the conditions present in every other hotel quarantine.

As two adults in a relatively spacious twin queen room with balcony and large soaker tub, we could pretend to be having a bit of a holiday from regular life (hotel shampoo tubes make good bubbles for the bath). It helped that we both had stuff to do other than reading books, trolling the Internet, and watching TV.

But a family with two young children just moved in next to our room yesterday - given the amount of crying we heard last night, that’s going to be a very, very long fortnight for the parents. The NT camp described in the story would have been heaps more comfortable.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure, but a worldwide pandemic is NOT just "medical care". That's my whole point. There is no option of " do no harm" - millions of people have died and millions more will die one way or the other. You simply can't approach it from that point of view. In my humble opinion.

Although when it comes to medical treatments (such as vaccination) I believe the premise of “do no harm” should be adhered to, I also strongly agree that medical advice should not rule the general handling of a pandemic. I have voiced this opinion before.

Numerous factors need to be taken into account and in some sense I guess this is akin to military planning. I think it would help tremendously if countries had well planned strategies in place beforehand to help react swiftly and sustainably. Having confidence that these strategies were well thought out, as well as having a enough grit to adhere to them, would also enable governments to proceed decisively rather than flounder and respond according to what was perceived as politically favourable.

Reading back on this, some of it sounds wooly, but I can’t find a way to express myself much better.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

PS Dockhead, what do you consider is the “mission objective”?

Deciding on this is a critical step in planning action, is it not?

SWL

[Anders]

Originally Posted by dannc

From an outsider looking at the EU vs AZ debate, it seemed to really be angst with the EU against the UK, i.e., Brexit related. With all of the yelling and screaming the EU was doing, and the announced lawsuit against AZ, I figured the EU made their noise to satisfy their stake holders, and would wait for time to pass, as would the lawsuit.

Read somewhere this week that the lawsuit between AZ and the EU has been settled. Surprise, Surprise, Surprise. The whole AZ vs EU angst was just noise but damaging noise never the less.



But can the damage to AZ be repaired? Will people outside of the developed world want a vaccine that the EU said has problems? Will people trust a vaccine that the EU has surpluses of because Europeans won't/haven't taken the vaccine?

Later,
Dan

No one in the EU has any interest in Brexit any more.
EU has decided not to order any more from AZ since there are now good supplies of better vaccines. I suspect UK will not order any more either.

[Apollo19.5]

Originally Posted by fxykty

....

But a family with two young children just moved in next to our room yesterday - given the amount of crying we heard last night, that’s going to be a very, very long fortnight for the parents. The NT camp described in the story would have been heaps more comfortable.

Was the crying from the kids or the parents?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Anders

No one in the EU has any interest in Brexit any more.
EU has decided not to order any more from AZ since there are now good supplies of better vaccines. I suspect UK will not order any more either.

Bollox.. The EU is demanding 200 million doses by March.. Get your shyte together and quit banging the drum.. politically they give a mega shyte.
As for variants.. give Covid a break and it will settle down like the flu virus. random bouts which hit Co morbidities otherwise just a bad cold..
But hey.. Let's not upset the Kit n Kin Daiper Brigade..

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Anders

No one in the EU has any interest in Brexit any more.
EU has decided not to order any more from AZ since there are now good supplies of better vaccines. I suspect UK will not order any more either.

Based on what I read in EU news sites, the EU seems to have a real fear of English sausages sneaking across the Irish border, and somehow, destroying the German frankfurter market.

Per the "settlement" with AZ, the EU wants 210 million jabs by the end of 1Q2022.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...e-out-of-court

Under the settlement, AstraZeneca has committed to deliver 60 million doses of its vaccine, Vaxzevria, by the end of the third quarter this year, 75 million by the end of the fourth quarter and 65 million by the end of the first quarter of 2022.

If the EU will not use these hundreds of millions of vaccines, hopefully they will give them to Australia, New Zealand or some of the many other countries that have a serious need for them.

Later,
Dan

[El Pinguino]

Back on topic - which I believe is or was to do with Covid in Australia.

Victorian regional areas ie the bush came out of 'lockdown' last night and much of rural NSW comes out tonight. Still rules on masks, size of gatherings, and a bit of minor stuff. Travel between Melbourne and Sydney is still not possible in a practical manner. While you can go from Melbourne to Sydney you can not travel from Sydney to Melbourne.

While it would be nice to think that interstate travel is of no consequence the Melbourne Sydney route was, before Covid, the third busiest air corridor in the world - after two in Korea.

Likewise travel between NZ and Au is still not possible. Some 10% of New Zealanders live and work in Australia.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by dannc

Based on what I read in EU news sites, the EU seems to have a real fear of English sausages sneaking across the Irish border, and somehow, destroying the German frankfurter market.

Per the "settlement" with AZ, the EU wants 210 million jabs by the end of 1Q2022.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...e-out-of-court

If the EU will not use these hundreds of millions of vaccines, hopefully they will give them to Australia, New Zealand or some of the many other countries that have a serious need for them.

Later,
Dan

Australia is making its own AZ and has a surplus while NZ has all its money on the Phizer pony - and says it has plenty.
They should be sent to African countries.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by dannc

Based on what I read in EU news sites, the EU seems to have a real fear of English sausages sneaking across the Irish border, and somehow, destroying the German frankfurter market.

Per the "settlement" with AZ, the EU wants 210 million jabs by the end of 1Q2022.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...e-out-of-court

If the EU will not use these hundreds of millions of vaccines, hopefully they will give them to Australia, New Zealand or some of the many other countries that have a serious need for them.

Later,
Dan

Latest EU AstraZeneca scare story..
The AZ vaccine causes nerve damage...

The European Medicines Agency (EMA) has warned of a potential vaccine side effect that can cause temporary paralysis in the hands, feet and limbs. The disorder is known as Guillain-Barre syndrome (GBS) and, although rare, can cause problems with breathing, swallowing and movement. According to the EMA, the agency has considered "at least a reasonable possibility" of a link between Guillain-Barre and AstraZeneca's Vaxzevria jab.

Some 833 cases of the disorder have been reported globally as of July 31 from nearly 600 million administered AstraZeneca vaccines.