The Reality of Living in Australia and Covid

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Group9

Excellent idea. Throw in overweight people, people who don’t exercise, smokers, drinkers, drug users and people who engage in other unreasonably risky activities, and the government could probably cut their public healthcare budget by 90 per cent or so.

There’s an argument. It’s not good, though. All such libertarian arguments fall over as soon as one of the proponents needs a hospital or the neighbours tanks roll up at the border

Unreasonably risky activities will include coast guards and the like … such short sighted and selfish views fall over at this point.

We’re stronger united than we are divided which is the ultimate downfall of selfish ideology like libertarianism.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by tp12

There’s an argument. It’s not good, though. All such libertarian arguments fall over as soon as one of the proponents needs a hospital or the neighbours tanks roll up at the border

Unreasonably risky activities will include coast guards and the like … such short sighted and selfish views fall over at this point.

We’re stronger united than we are divided which is the ultimate downfall of selfish ideology like libertarianism.

I was attempting to be facetious.

The social contract of all government and country, is really just an agreement to share risk and support each other in abatement and/or mitigation of those risks. In a free society, that means there will be more risk to share than in a totalitarian country.

I’ll still pick the most free country I can find, even knowing the costs that come with that decision. Obviously, opinions may vary on that.

[Baronkrak]

Originally Posted by Group9

Excellent idea. Throw in overweight people, people who don’t exercise, smokers, drinkers, drug users and people who engage in other unreasonably risky activities, and the government could probably cut their public healthcare budget by 90 per cent or so.

Does the one that never used his Medicare card get a full refund?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Singapore's reopening might be worth studying, for other "covid zero" approach countries like Oz.


Although Singapore has achieved more than 86% (!) of the entire population fully vaccinated, the small number of remaining unvaccinated people has been enough to allow a quite big wave of infections, which recently peaked at almost 700 daily cases per million, with a non-trivial death rate which is about 2.5 per million, about the same as the current death rate in the UK.


Despite the tiny number of unvaccinated adults, 70% of the deaths are unvaccinated. Hospitals are under stress, and the Singapore government has taken the remarkably harsh step of refusing to provide free health care for unvaccinated COVID patients. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...care-covid-19/.


Harsh, but -- there is of course a good argument that people should have to pay for costs they impose on society by their own choices.


If I understood correctly, most of the Australian states are planning to reopen when they reach 80% of the adult population (not 80% of the entire population) vaccinated. I wonder if that idea is being revisited, in view of the experience in Singapore. What separates former "zero covid" countries from the rest of the world, is low natural immunity in the population. Such countries will need a higher vaccination rate than other countries, to keep the spread under control after reopening, I would think.

In Australia we are looking at either the over 16 year olds or the over 12 year olds, neither of which count as the 'adult' population.
In Vic f'rinstance fully vaxxed over 16 is 85.7%, over 12 is 84.6% and of the total 72.3%. However nation wide over 80% of all over 35 year olds are fully vaccinated while in my age bracket the figure is 96.4% with 99% first shot.
All sets of figures - total, over 12, and over 16 can be found here
https://www.theage.com.au/national/c...28-p56xht.html.

Regarding re-opening. I'm not sure what you mean by 're-opening' - intrastate, interstate or international?
Our international borders were a federal issue.

The states? Most of them have had no 'lockdowns' apart from a few snap 'lockdowns' here and there that have -in all cases- worked and worked well.
What they have had is 'lockouts' in that they have denied entry to residents of Victoria and NSW on occasions and I think all bar WA have set dates for opening their borders, mid December for Tasmania, end of November for SA.

NSW, ACT, and Vic's borders are open to all comers domestic and international ( fully vaxxed for them).

Is it working? Just take a look at NSW, I think the answer is yes.

A little outlier is the City of Melbourne that I have mentioned before. This is the 'City' - not Greater Melbourne.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/v...10-p597nx.html

And to round things off - a graph with Australia and New Zealand included - this is after all the 'Australian Covid' thread.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

In Australia we are looking at either the over 16 year olds or the over 12 year olds, neither of which count as the 'adult' population.
In Vic f'rinstance fully vaxxed over 16 is 85.7%, over 12 is 84.6% and of the total 72.3%. However nation wide over 80% of all over 35 year olds are fully vaccinated while in my age bracket the figure is 96.4% with 99% first shot.
All sets of figures - total, over 12, and over 16 can be found here
https://www.theage.com.au/national/c...28-p56xht.html.

Regarding re-opening. I'm not sure what you mean by 're-opening' - intrastate, interstate or international?
Our international borders were a federal issue.

The states? Most of them have had no 'lockdowns' apart from a few snap 'lockdowns' here and there that have -in all cases- worked and worked well.
What they have had is 'lockouts' in that they have denied entry to residents of Victoria and NSW on occasions and I think all bar WA have set dates for opening their borders, mid December for Tasmania, end of November for SA.

NSW, ACT, and Vic's borders are open to all comers domestic and international ( fully vaxxed for them).

Is it working? Just take a look at NSW, I think the answer is yes.

A little outlier is the City of Melbourne that I have mentioned before. This is the 'City' - not Greater Melbourne.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/v...10-p597nx.html

And to round things off - a graph with Australia and New Zealand included - this is after all the 'Australian Covid' thread.

Yes, well, I think it looks great so far in Australia, during this phase. The wave of infection after ending "covid zero" has been very mild. The vaccination campaign, after a slow start, is really impressive.

I am just musing about the moving goal posts concerning the end of this. I really didn't expect that there could still be so much infection, anywhere, with such high vaccination rates. This pandemic is like a giant zombie eating the world's brains out, and it just never seems to end. Singapore is struggling, and look at Denmark -- with nearly the highest vaccination rate in Europe PLUS a great deal of natural immunity since there have been several waves of infection already. Still yet another big wave of infection. Not that long ago, Denmark (and Norway) officially declared the end of pandemic measures, the transition from "pandemic" to "endemic". But now look. As long as there is no significant amount of death, maybe they will hold the course. But I can tell you there is a lot of discussion going on right now. No one expected this.

The term "reopening" is widely used in the press, especially yours. It's a fairly sloppy term, but various state and federal officials are using it. See for example: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...833c57fc56f47; https://www.australia.gov.au/national-plan.

What is apparently meant by this is transitioning out of the measures.

As measured by the (admittedly flawed) Stringency Index, Australia is still under quite strict measures:



Coming off those is apparently what they mean by "reopening".

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Group9

I was attempting to be facetious.



The social contract of all government and country, is really just an agreement to share risk and support each other in abatement and/or mitigation of those risks. In a free society, that means there will be more risk to share than in a totalitarian country.



I’ll still pick the most free country I can find, even knowing the costs that come with that decision. Obviously, opinions may vary on that.

Ah, my apologies. There’s a few people who actually think that’s how it should be.

Regarding totalitarianism, there’s some that mistake public health measures for it and some that don’t. Ultimately things like lockdowns will become rare as vaccination levels rise to sufficient levels. Not going too early, though, and not without a booster program, as Israel has taught us.

I’m now in Brisbane and there’s no restrictions of note. I check in to various venues, very occasionally wear a mask and there’s some social distancing. That’s it, though, and even those small restrictions are going to stop shortly. There’s no impact to sailing, for example. Twilight’s, offshore racing, recreational…it’s all going ahead no problems.

Good times here!

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, well, I think it looks great so far in Australia, during this phase. The wave of infection after ending "covid zero" has been very mild. The vaccination campaign, after a slow start, is really impressive.

I am just musing about the moving goal posts concerning the end of this. I really didn't expect that there could still be so much infection, anywhere, with such high vaccination rates. This pandemic is like a giant zombie eating the world's brains out, and it just never seems to end. Singapore is struggling, and look at Denmark -- with nearly the highest vaccination rate in Europe PLUS a great deal of natural immunity since there have been several waves of infection already. Still yet another big wave of infection. Not that long ago, Denmark (and Norway) officially declared the end of pandemic measures, the transition from "pandemic" to "endemic". But now look. As long as there is no significant amount of death, maybe they will hold the course. But I can tell you there is a lot of discussion going on right now. No one expected this.

The term "reopening" is widely used in the press, especially yours. It's a fairly sloppy term, but various state and federal officials are using it. See for example: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...833c57fc56f47; https://www.australia.gov.au/national-plan.

What is apparently meant by this is transitioning out of the measures.

As measured by the (admittedly flawed) Stringency Index, Australia is still under quite strict measures:

Attachment 248081

Coming off those is apparently what they mean by "reopening".

Re those two links. In the Guardian one the word 'reopening' is used but once by Kim il McGowan in regard to the borders. There are zero, nada, nil, restrictions within WA with the solitary exception of travel into indiginous lands.
However - 'Morrison says' appears four times.
Nobody in this country pays any heed to anything Morrison - the PM for announcements - says.
Likewise the second link - its just Canberra wiffle waffle. The 'National Plan' - drafted in August - ceased to have any relevance by October.

[El Pinguino]

Meanwhile I find myself living next to Australia's only Covid hotspot where it is ripping through the schools
https://www.bordermail.com.au/story/...rent-outbreak/
and bumping off the aged
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...lity/100606662

I was down at Port Melbourne yesterday afternoon watching Queensland registered cars and caravans being loaded onto SpoT on their way to Tasmania for their summer hols.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by tp12

Ah, my apologies. There’s a few people who actually think that’s how it should be.

Regarding totalitarianism, there’s some that mistake public health measures for it and some that don’t. Ultimately things like lockdowns will become rare as vaccination levels rise to sufficient levels. Not going too early, though, and not without a booster program, as Israel has taught us.

I’m now in Brisbane and there’s no restrictions of note. I check in to various venues, very occasionally wear a mask and there’s some social distancing. That’s it, though, and even those small restrictions are going to stop shortly. There’s no impact to sailing, for example. Twilight’s, offshore racing, recreational…it’s all going ahead no problems.

Good times here!

I guess it’s all relative. We haven’t had any lockdowns where I live since late 2020 and we’re doing fine. I read the horror stories on the national news, but I still don’t personally know a single person who has died from it. I know at least a hundred people who got it, including my wife and I, who had symptoms ranging from nothing to a bad cold.

I realize it has cut a swath through the really unhealthy in many places.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Group9

I guess it’s all relative. We haven’t had any lockdowns where I live since late 2020 and we’re doing fine. I read the horror stories on the national news, but I still don’t personally know a single person who has died from it. I know at least a hundred people who got it, including my wife and I, who had symptoms ranging from nothing to a bad cold.

I realize it has cut a swath through the really unhealthy in many places.

I know of a mate’s sister in Melbourne who has long covid which is presenting a bit like chronic fatigue for her with shortness of breath and a bit of a foggy brain. That’s been going on for months, too, and she’s in her mid 30s. That will ruin people’s lives if that stays for any length of time.

Living in Qld has been good in terms of not knowing people who’ve gotten it. A mate of mine who’s a pilot caught it and was fine.

It certainly has impacted the elderly and people with health conditions more than others but it’s still impacting the young and healthy. Look at it ripping through schools. Thankfully most recover however we know little about the effect of long covid in this age group and they’re infecting adults. And how many people in Australia consider themselves fairly healthy but have a health condition? Quite a few! Just because you’re managing a health condition and living as normal a life as you can, in most cases 100% normal, doesn’t mean we can dismiss their death or illness in any way. High blood pressure and diabetic, for example. Both of my sons are diabetic and my eldest also has ceoliac - he’s 25. Being immunocompromised he has to really take care and I find it troubling that there are people who would shrug off his death as nothing because he has health conditions - not saying you’d do that, by the way. I’m speaking generally.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

There are no ratbags in Darwin, slightly eccentric perhaps.

It was the only place I had ever been where ques formed outside the pubs in the morning waiting for them to open.

Wait you have bars that close?

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Group9

I was attempting to be facetious.



The social contract of all government and country, is really just an agreement to share risk and support each other in abatement and/or mitigation of those risks. In a free society, that means there will be more risk to share than in a totalitarian country.



I’ll still pick the most free country I can find, even knowing the costs that come with that decision. Obviously, opinions may vary on that.

So moving to Texas are we?

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by tp12

I know of a mate’s sister in Melbourne who has long covid which is presenting a bit like chronic fatigue for her with shortness of breath and a bit of a foggy brain. That’s been going on for months, too, and she’s in her mid 30s. That will ruin people’s lives if that stays for any length of time.

Living in Qld has been good in terms of not knowing people who’ve gotten it. A mate of mine who’s a pilot caught it and was fine.

It certainly has impacted the elderly and people with health conditions more than others but it’s still impacting the young and healthy. Look at it ripping through schools. Thankfully most recover however we know little about the effect of long covid in this age group and they’re infecting adults. And how many people in Australia consider themselves fairly healthy but have a health condition? Quite a few! Just because you’re managing a health condition and living as normal a life as you can, in most cases 100% normal, doesn’t mean we can dismiss their death or illness in any way. High blood pressure and diabetic, for example. Both of my sons are diabetic and my eldest also has ceoliac - he’s 25. Being immunocompromised he has to really take care and I find it troubling that there are people who would shrug off his death as nothing because he has health conditions - not saying you’d do that, by the way. I’m speaking generally.

Yes it’s interesting how some speak of comorbidities as if that individual were mere moments from death.
Sister intubated and in icu for a couple of weeks
Guy at work got it 6 months ago and sounds like he smokes 4 packs a day since birth

Neither appeared to be 1 foot in the grave previously

So anyone that got it mild with no apparent long term issues nice. But don’t think everyone will respond in the same matter

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Yes it’s interesting how some speak of comorbidities as if that individual were mere moments from death.
Sister intubated and in icu for a couple of weeks
Guy at work got it 6 months ago and sounds like he smokes 4 packs a day since birth

Neither appeared to be 1 foot in the grave previously

So anyone that got it mild with no apparent long term issues nice. But don’t think everyone will respond in the same matter

Over the last twentyone months there have been a few who have suggested it was only killing the 'useless mouths' and unproductive.

[GordMay]

PNG caught between COVID and vaccine sceptics in pandemic battle

Fewer than 2 percent [1.7% according to Our World in Data] of people in Papua New Guinea (PNG) are fully vaccinated against the coronavirus, as cases mount.
The vaccination rate remains abysmally low, despite adequate vaccine supplies, and aid from the Australian government, and international organisations, such as the Red Cross.
The main reason: misinformation on social media.

More reporting ➥ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...andemic-battle