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Old 01-12-2020, 08:46   #46
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
That's mainly because the average person isn't likely to wear an N95 mask in a way that it will actually protect them. Just look at how poorly many wear the basic cloth ones now. So, it wouldn't be cost-effective. Besides they have barely kept up with producing enough PPE for the front-line health professionals.

A big percentage of people here are using N95 masks. I think they are actually easier to wear than other types because you clearly feel when you've got a decent seal.


I wouldn't really use any kind of mask other than an N95 one. Without valve of course.
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Old 01-12-2020, 08:46   #47
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
That's mainly because the average person isn't likely to wear an N95 mask in a way that it will actually protect them. Just look at how poorly many wear the basic cloth ones now. So, it wouldn't be cost-effective. Besides they have barely kept up with producing enough PPE for the front-line health professionals.
An N95 mask is a PITA to wear. I had one until I lost it. I was issued the mask and trained in it's use when the Swine Flu was going to be The One.

But lets get real. It is NOT rocket science on how to correctly wear an N95 mask. Yes, some people will not wear one correctly, and in some cases, it is VERY difficult to wear one when one has to actually breath hard. But many will wear the mask and do it correctly.

Surely, some people wearing a far more effective mask, is better than a bunch of people wearing a mask made from a f...n t shirt.

If one says masks are key to slowing the spread of the virus, I would think the Western world could manage to increase production of something that is simple to produce. There is no excuse of not ramping up N95 and surgical mask production. None. Yet this has not been done by any country I know about.

Later,
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Old 01-12-2020, 08:56   #48
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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No, one should be vaccinating the people most likely to die. The vast majority of people dying from COVID are the elderly and especially those in nursing homes. They should get the vaccine since they are most likely to die from the virus.
If you dig into the research, it may not actually be the best way to protect them (ignoring some of the logistical issues already discussed).

If you have an elderly person in an old folks home who only has contact is with the same 2 staff daily who are already vaccinated, there is a negligible chance that he will catch the disease. In terms of other people catching it, there is almost no chance such an isolated person would spread it to others so the vaccine would be almost exclusively a benefit to that individual with no benefit to the larger community.

On the other hand, a young healthy cashier at little risk directly from the disease who contacts 100 people per day with most of those being new people each day and assuming it's 5 days before symptoms show (assuming he ever shows any symptoms), he could easily expose 500 people. Even if those people have on average 1/100th the chance of dying, he is 5 times more likely to have a death related to his spread of the disease and likely many more who have some level of illness due to his spreading of it...some of those infected are likely to be high risk individuals. And this ignores that many of those who he infects may go on to infect others, so he could result in literally thousands of cases traced back to him passing it on.

Now this is something of an extreme example to show the principal but dial it back a bit and it still holds up. If you can vaccinate the primary transmission pathways, a relatively small percentage of the population vaccinated can drastically cut the number of cases and protect the high risk individuals while the rest of the population is vaccinated.

While we talk about health care workers as essential, they also tend to be in contact with many people thru the day and there is a higher likelihood that they come into contact both with those that are infected and those that are at higher risk, so they are a primary transmission pathway that needs to be cut off as soon as possible and that's probably more important than simply keeping them on the job.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:01   #49
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

Thermal cameras are worse than useless. They are very inaccurate in measuring body temperature -- lots of factors influence the temperature of the skin on your face. Plus, many people with active COVID don't have temperatures, even if they have other symptoms. The cameras give a false sense of security which can take attention away from measures that do work.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:19   #50
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

We just flew Vancouver to Mexico City and on to Manzanillo. The boarding was military style, row by row. We were flying first class and boarded absolutely last. Same on arrival, first off. We were tested and sanitised no less than 10 times.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:22   #51
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

I am a retired airline pilot and there is no way my wife and I will get on an airplane till we have recieved the vaccine.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:24   #52
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

believe me .. if you are sick and coughing .. a cloth mask will not prevent you from spreading your illness. and most of us know that a cloth mask will not filter out viral particles that are being expelled from someone else
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:28   #53
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

Not quite a fit for the thread, but if you remove "airplanes" from the title...

New study of donated blood samples shows significant Covid presence in the US in December 2019. This follows a study last month that had similar findings in Italy last fall. Once vetted and confirmed could change the picture a great deal.

It's going to be interesting.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:30   #54
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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Some/all? of the vaccines require two inoculations, so 40 million shots/jabs is only 20 million people. I just Googled and there are 18 million health care workers in the US. If that is true, 20 million will almost inoculate all health care and first responders. Which is a good start.
There is a month between shots from what I've read.

So if there are 40 million by Dec 31, that would cover all the health care workers plus another 22 million from the next category down for the 1st jab. Assuming they are ramping up production, there should be even more than 40 million doses available in January, so by the end of January as noted, pretty much all the health care workers would be covered along with another 22 million in the next category including the 2nd jab.

Yes, there will be bottle necks and some hiccups but this is going to be a situation where if the drug companies say they are short of something, you will see it provided as soon as possible...at least until the parent country (of the drug companies) is fully served. Once the parent countries are served, you might see a little less anything goes to keep the vaccine rolling out but even then, it would be horrible optics not to keep the vaccine rolling out, so it likely won't be anything that will have a big impact on production.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:49   #55
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
. . . . If you can vaccinate the primary transmission pathways, a relatively small percentage of the population vaccinated can drastically cut the number of cases and protect the high risk individuals while the rest of the population is vaccinated.

While we talk about health care workers as essential, they also tend to be in contact with many people thru the day and there is a higher likelihood that they come into contact both with those that are infected and those that are at higher risk, so they are a primary transmission pathway that needs to be cut off as soon as possible and that's probably more important than simply keeping them on the job.

That's it exactly. Job 1 should be to break the back of the pandemic. That means stopping community spread. You target the potential spreaders first.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:17   #56
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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I think the point is a lot of these little things are easy to do anyway so why not just try to catch that extra 10%. Instead of saying nothing works.
This works as long as your honest with the populace. If you say up front that you have no idea what the effectiveness of measuring temperatures is or that you believe you will only catch 10% of the infected travelers then it gives people more information to work with before deciding whether to travel or not.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:35   #57
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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Originally Posted by dannc View Post
No, one should be vaccinating the people most likely to die. The vast majority of people dying from COVID are the elderly and especially those in nursing homes. They should get the vaccine since they are most likely to die from the virus.

But health care workers and other first responders HAVE to get the vaccine first since they are more likely to be exposed, are more likely to be taken out of service and spread the virus. If there are no first responders and health care workers, then the death rate will soar.

After the health care workers and first responders get the vaccine then it should be the must vulnerable group who are dying. Which means the elderly.

One of the two failures in this whole mess is not being able to keep the virus out of nursing homes, which may be all but impossible, and not providing N95 or surgical masks to the general population. Nine months into this mess, and no country that I am aware, has made the effort to increase production of N95 or surgical masks for everyone to use.

Later,
Dan

There were 93 active cases in the Thunder Bay (Ontario) district as of Monday, with 75 new cases announced in just the last week. Over 50 of those are associated with an outbreak at the Southbridge Roseview long-term care home, which has led to the death of two residents in recent days.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:38   #58
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

Can't be bother to read the whole thread so apologies If I am repeating. This is the advice I am getting from public health and nursing in Canada.
1 Flying is a high risk activity
2 Standard cloth or medical masks do not protect you in a contaminated indoor space such as an aircraft
3 N95 mask face shields and other PPE as required will protect you but need to be professionally fitted and you need to be trained to use them.
High filtration air HVAC systems can reduce the viral load in the air but will not eliminate it.
4 Exposure time is the critical factor. This is more complex. The smaller and more crowded the space the higher the viral load. Plus the longer you spend there the more of that load you inhale. There is a critical level of exposure before you become infected but we don't know what it is and it probably varies between individuals.

5 Screening is not fully effective because a newly infected person can be shedding virus for 3-5 days before showing ANY symptoms. The first symptom is loss of smell and taste in 80% of patients and taking temps is highly unreliable (high fever is a late onset symptom and give lost of false positives)



So I would say short flights only if essential and appreciate it is probably the highest risk activity you do. In Canada you generally have to quarantine at your destination on arrival. I would definitely advise self isolation from any vulnerable family as a min
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Old 01-12-2020, 12:10   #59
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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...So I would say short flights only if essential and appreciate it is probably the highest risk activity you do. In Canada you generally have to quarantine at your destination on arrival. I would definitely advise self isolation from any vulnerable family as a min
I agree Roland. Self-isolation is not mandatory for inter-Canadian travel (except into the Maritimes). BC is now recommending it. Ontario has never instituted it, although NW Ontario recommends it.

We are self-isolating after our flight because I want to limit any risk we pose to others. So far, so good...
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Old 01-12-2020, 12:20   #60
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Re: Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

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I agree Roland. Self-isolation is not mandatory for inter-Canadian travel (except into the Maritimes). BC is now recommending it. Ontario has never instituted it, although NW Ontario recommends it.

We are self-isolating after our flight because I want to limit any risk we pose to others. So far, so good...
Mike, tell me about your self-isolation.

Are you staying with a friend or did you get a hotel room.

How about food. Are you having it delivered?

Details on your self isolation would be helpful for others here.
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