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Old 05-10-2021, 02:49   #46
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

Quote:
... There is no inherent legal reason why a test performed by a vessel's medical officer must necessarily be less acceptable than some other ...
Except, perhaps, that an uncertified ship’s ‘medical officer’ may not be qualified. Additionaly, according to some regulations, many medical tests must be performed by certified lab’s.
Not arguing. Just sayin ...

However, as Will Rogers noted: “The best doctor in the world is the veterinarian. He can't ask his patients what is the matter – he's got to just know.”
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:46   #47
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Except, perhaps, that an uncertified ship’s ‘medical officer’ may not be qualified. Additionaly, according to some regulations, many medical tests must be performed by certified lab’s.
Not arguing. Just sayin ...

What "certification" do the millions of temp hires, many of them unemployed restaurant workers, performing tests on land have? Swabbing a nose is not brain surgery. What "certification" do I have to give an injection of morphine to a crewman with a broken arm? Yet as the master of a British vessel, I have the right to do this (and to buy the morphine and syringe, too, and keep it on board).


But like I said, whether authorities in this or another country will accept a test given on board or not is still pure speculation. We still don't know anything.


And in any case, a far better solution to this problem than performing tests on board would be for the authorities to recognize tests taken on land within 3 days (or whatever) before embarkation, rather than arrival.


And I think the whole problem is starting to go away anyway, at least in the developed, vaccinated parts of the world, as entry requirements are relaxed. In Europe already hardly any country requires testing any more for vaccinated people, and where testing is required (for example, for unvaccinated people), more and more often, no documents are checked -- you self-certify that you've been tested via the PLF.
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:50   #48
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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There is no inherent legal reason why a test performed by a vessel's medical officer must necessarily be less acceptable than some other.
Sure there is. First, as you are aware there need be nothing inherently sensible about the law. It just is.

More importantly, in this case science is important and the rapid antigen tests are not sufficiently reliable. PCR tests are best practice and state of the art. If you buy the equipment, take the training, get your boat certified as a lab you can do it on board.

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Allow the test to have been taken within the same time window before EMBARKING, rather than before arrival. At sea you can't be exposed to new people, so this perfectly fulfills the intention of the rule. Furthermore, it's even better because you have been in isolation for a long time.
As I noted above this is increasingly the case, at least on this side of the Atlantic. Of course you have to be prepared to demonstrate that EVERYONE aboard had a test in the time frame and tested negative. I've updated my crew list template and attach copies of the test reports.

Places like Bermuda (https://www.gov.bm/coronavirus-travellers-visitors), Bahamas (https://travel.gov.bs/), USVI (https://www.usvitravelportal.com/), PR (https://1link.travelsafe.pr.gov/) make it all very easy. You get tested before departure. You bundle up all your test reports and submit the application. Yes, you have to manage time well but you leave the dock with the entry form in hand that you've jumped through all the hoops.

Even the United States, arguably one of the most difficult countries to enter, has it right: negative PCR test within three days of departure. https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...al-travel.html You can report as soon as you arrive using the CBP ROAM app https://www.cbp.gov/travel/pleasure-...-boat-overview which even triggers issuance of a cruising permit for non-US nationals.

I haven't been to EU under COVID protocols. The EU looks pretty unpleasant (https://www.noonsite.com/news/novel-...try-worldwide/) and not really an option for travel from the US anyway. Perhaps getting home again ought to be Dockhead's big concern.
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Old 05-10-2021, 03:58   #49
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
What "certification" do the millions of temp hires, many of them unemployed restaurant workers, performing tests on land have?
You're confusing taking the sample with performing the test. As has been noted, PCR tests must be evaluated in a lab. Rapid antigen tests have a high failure rate and that is why they are not accepted for C&I.

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In Europe already hardly any country requires testing any more for vaccinated people
Except for that awkward green passport which is hugely difficult for travelers to get.

I wish Mr. Biden would get his head out of his butt and get us a RealID compliant national US vaccine credential. Bah!
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:38   #50
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
More importantly, in this case science is important and the rapid antigen tests are not sufficiently reliable. PCR tests are best practice and state of the art. If you buy the equipment, take the training, get your boat certified as a lab you can do it on board.

Who says antigen tests are "not sufficiently reliable"? Most European countries accept antigen tests, including, for example, the UK, and few require any test at all if you're vaccinated.


And actually as of yesterday, the UK no longer requires a test for entry unless you are coming from a red-listed country (a fairly short list containing no developed countries).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
. . .I haven't been to EU under COVID protocols. The EU looks pretty unpleasant (https://www.noonsite.com/news/novel-...try-worldwide/) and not really an option for travel from the US anyway. Perhaps getting home again out to be Dockhead's big concern.

Your perception of the situation is out of date. Europe now welcomes Americans, some countries even unvaccinated Americans.



Cruising in Northern European waters has been mostly fine throughout the pandemic (we have a long thread on that which is still going). Borders were closed briefly in 2020, but Baltic cruising has been almost normal throughout the pandemic including not only Summer 2021 but also Summer 2020. Germany has been the strictest among the Baltic littoral states but I sailed there both in 2020 and 2021 without problems and without tests.


Finland and Sweden have not regulated pleasure boat entries from other EU countries at all, even when visitors arriving by plane were required to be tested.


Arriving by yacht from outside of the EU has been a little more complicated, but those restrictions are also being removed.



France requires of sailors arriving from outside the EU a test before departure, and antigen test is OK. You're not allowed entry, however, if you're not vaccinated.


Spain does not require any testing at all from vaccinated crews.


Portugal also allows foreign yacht to enter from outside the EU without testing for vaccinated crew; antigen test 48 hours before departure is ok for the unvaxxed.


Germany allows you to enter by yacht from outside the EU without testing, but all the crew must be vaccinated.



It's generally no problem to sail to Europe now, at least if you're vaccinated.
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:49   #51
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
You're confusing taking the sample with performing the test. As has been noted, PCR tests must be evaluated in a lab. Rapid antigen tests have a high failure rate and that is why they are not accepted for C&I.
Obviously doing a PCR test on board is out of the question. That's not a question of qualifications, it's a question of equipment and materials.

But you are not correct about antigen tests being not accepted for entry. All but a few European countries are fine with antigen tests.

And anyway, latest thinking on antigen tests is that they are actually very good. See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8127166/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
. . .Except for that awkward green passport which is hugely difficult for travelers to get.

I wish Mr. Biden would get his head out of his butt and get us a RealID compliant national US vaccine credential. Bah!
I agree!

However, my CDC card is working almost everywhere now. Previously, Denmark and Latvia did not recognize me as vaccinated without the interoperable EU certificate, but both now recognize the CDC card.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:58   #52
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
... What "certification" do I have to give an injection of morphine to a crewman with a broken arm? Yet as the master of a British vessel, I have the right to do this (and to buy the morphine and syringe, too, and keep it on board) ...
If by “master of a British vessel” you are referring to one having a: “Boatmasters' licence”, or the commercial or yacht “Master Certificate of Competence” (CoC) [issued by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency], or even one of the “RYA Yachtmaster” Certificates of Competence; then you’re NOT “an uncertified ship’s ‘medical officer’”, whose competence I queried.

If your vessel is used within the legal definition of a pleasure vessel, and is either less than 24m in load line length, or less than 80GT, there is no requirement for you to have a certificate of competence, to skipper the vessel in UK territorial waters, or on the high seas.
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:24   #53
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Who says antigen tests are "not sufficiently reliable"? Most European countries accept antigen tests, including, for example, the UK, and few require any test at all if you're vaccinated.
Canada and US medical authorities are both saying 80 to 90% accurate for rapid antigen tests. NHS is saying 99.5% without substantiation.

Just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's smart.

I think you and I are looking at this quite differently. I'm looking at what the science indicates is smart from a public health point of view, even if it means I can't do everything I want. It appears you are focused on what you are allowed to do and complaining when you are restricted.

The vaccine is not a panacea. Necessary but not sufficient.

Quote:
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Your perception of the situation is out of date. Europe now welcomes Americans, some countries even unvaccinated Americans.
My sources were the official EU site for coronavirus and Noonsite as of this morning.
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:50   #54
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
. . . My sources were the official EU site for coronavirus and Noonsite as of this morning.

You wrote "The EU looks pretty unpleasant and not really an option for travel from the US anyway." It was true that Europe was closed to Americans for a long time. But that has not been true since the middle of the summer. That's the part which is out of date.


Also it's really not unpleasant, either. I average 2 international flights per week and have crossed international borders at least 20 times in my boat since the pandemic began. It's really fine now, at least if you're vaccinated. Come over and come sailing and I'll show you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
. . . Canada and US medical authorities are both saying 80 to 90% accurate for rapid antigen tests. NHS is saying 99.5% without substantiation.

Just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's smart.

I think you and I are looking at this quite differently. I'm looking at what the science indicates is smart from a public health point of view, even if it means I can't do everything I want. It appears you are focused on what you are allowed to do and complaining when you are restricted.

The vaccine is not a panacea. Necessary but not sufficient.

We were talking about the formalities, and how to fulfill them. Specifically we were talking about how to deal with the impossible to fulfill requirement of arriving with a 72 hour old test after a two week ocean crossing. But now we're evaluating the whole scheme of pandemic measures, including even which tests to use? Way above my pay grade . .



But if I had to guess -- the antigen tests are accepted almost everywhere in Europe. I would guess the policymakers are balancing different factors:


1. Accuracy (both false negatives and false positives have consequences)
2. Cost
3. Speed
4. Capacity


A rational policymaker might very well decide that losing a few percentage degrees of specificity is really worth it to gain the rapidity of the antigen test, making the test possible to get in the airport before a flight, leading to much greater sustainability of the requirement for testing, so leading to more testing, which has an overall greater effect. Not to mention the great practical advantages of cost, simplicity (done on the spot; no lab required), not straining lab capacity, etc.



Perfection is not the goal -- the overall result is the goal, considering all the different angles. Using antigen tests may very well be (is very likely to be) a case of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.


But that was not the subject of this thread, which is entirely practical.
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Old 05-10-2021, 05:52   #55
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
Sure there is. First, as you are aware there need be nothing inherently sensible about the law. It just is.

More importantly, in this case science is important and the rapid antigen tests are not sufficiently reliable. PCR tests are best practice and state of the art. If you buy the equipment, take the training, get your boat certified as a lab you can do it on board.



As I noted above this is increasingly the case, at least on this side of the Atlantic. Of course you have to be prepared to demonstrate that EVERYONE aboard had a test in the time frame and tested negative. I've updated my crew list template and attach copies of the test reports.

Places like Bermuda (https://www.gov.bm/coronavirus-travellers-visitors), Bahamas (https://travel.gov.bs/), USVI (https://www.usvitravelportal.com/), PR (https://1link.travelsafe.pr.gov/) make it all very easy. You get tested before departure. You bundle up all your test reports and submit the application. Yes, you have to manage time well but you leave the dock with the entry form in hand that you've jumped through all the hoops.

Even the United States, arguably one of the most difficult countries to enter, has it right: negative PCR test within three days of departure. https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...al-travel.html You can report as soon as you arrive using the CBP ROAM app https://www.cbp.gov/travel/pleasure-...-boat-overview which even triggers issuance of a cruising permit for non-US nationals.

I haven't been to EU under COVID protocols. The EU looks pretty unpleasant (https://www.noonsite.com/news/novel-...try-worldwide/) and not really an option for travel from the US anyway. Perhaps getting home again ought to be Dockhead's big concern.


The noon site is rather a hodge posted. In general EU is allowing vaccinated travel without hinderance.
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Old 05-10-2021, 06:13   #56
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Swabbing a nose is not brain surgery.
There have been many reports here stateside of an overly enthusiastic temps trying to perform brain surgery through the nose swab...
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Old 05-10-2021, 06:22   #57
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

I will stand up and be counted to be stoned, but I rally against vaxx and testing.

Others will reckon me as infinite stupid, but from 'our' perspective, that notion is replicate.

I believe the C19 is man-made. Will be with us for ever same as SARS is suppressed but still exist and will be around as flu are around.

Vaxx are to my belief ineffective and contributes to spreading the C19 virus. The ineffectiveness off course proven by the required booster shots, and the new evidence that vaxx are only 'effective ' for 6 months.

No conspiracy; my take on to believe the other side of the contra C19 evidence/arguments/safety factors.

There are two ways out of this:
Either all non-vaxxes kill off the vaxxers and put an end to it, or all vaxxers kill off all non-vaxxers - at which point we will succeed in what the jabs are professed can do, or:

We can rise to the occasion and resist and put away the C19 regulations.

Regulations not implemented by governments, but the stringholders above them. Governments only help enforcing it.

That explains why a few countries like SA, OZ, NZ, IS, and GB enforce it aggressive , some US states and EU enforces it with varying compliance , and African countries give them the middle finger.

The rules are incoherent. Flying into country is okay, but entry via seaport is denied.

Beaches open ½day, but not full. Curfews midnight to 4:00 (when the least people are in the streets) , and the stupendous rules abounds.

I advocate that we eradicate the hysteria.

I had flu 10 years ago and almost died from pneumonia. I had C19, and like most, survived.

If it is your or my time to kick the bucket , you will die even if it means a bucket full bricks to fall on your head.

Hiding behind a vaccination will not put you out of the reaper's reach.

Sit back, ignore the booha, and watch the carnival unfolds.
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Old 05-10-2021, 08:55   #58
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You wrote "The EU looks pretty unpleasant and not really an option for travel from the US anyway." It was true that Europe was closed to Americans for a long time. But that has not been true since the middle of the summer. That's the part which is out of date.
The official EU website as of this morning still doesn't list the US as allowed for travel. I drilled down to France which didn't look good either. I checked Noonsite for contrary information and didn't find any.

Regarding rapid antigen tests, 20% worse results compared to PCR doesn't strike me as "a few points."

PCR tests are fast and easy. It takes about an hour as I understand it to run the test. The turn-around time most people experience is driven by moving stuff around and filling out forms. Here in Anne Arundel County Maryland from swab to results is averaging 36 hours. In Bermuda my experience was about 10 hours. Bahamas was one to two days. In PR we got a private nursing service from a lab and turn around was 45 minutes.

A quick Google turned up a comparison of total cost for PCR and antigen tests from University of Rochester Medical Center that are roughly equal (PCR actually a little cheaper but not much). That's cost - not price.

For me, PCR tests are free--provided by the state (taxpayer expense of cost). Rapid tests I have to buy at the pharmacy. Better results with lower out-of-pocket cost. Of course in the US that varies by state. In NJ the state pays for both rapid and PCR tests. You get both at once, because they want you to know something right away and then give you the best answer later. Second hand info (from crew, slightly dated) is that NY doesn't have public testing and you have to get it yourself; that crew member may not have looked hard enough. Crew from states including TN and KY have not mentioned cost as a factor. All this of course in a country not exactly known for public availability of health care.

The process for me is to make an appointment online and show up at the test site to be swabbed. They take walk-ins but that means an extra 10 minutes to fill out the form. I type faster than I write and registering online gives me a QR code that avoids transcription errors. When the results are ready I get both a text message and an email, both with links to my official report. You can get a phone call if you ask but I don't need any extra phone calls.

In Bermuda, your entry PCR lets you move around. You also get swabbed at C&I and get a text and an email with the results in about ten hours.

In the US your entry PCR test is it - all you need. Same in the Bahamas.

The test is easy, the forms are easy (at least for the places I've gone), and so far testing and authorization have not been schedule drivers. Getting food allergies and preferences from crew is more time consuming than COVID protocols. Perhaps I'm just organized. I did move a lot of boats during the early US version of "lockdown" including the period when the Chesapeake Bay was closed to all recreational traffic. *grin*
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:00   #59
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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The official EU website as of this morning still doesn't list the US as allowed for travel.
EU only makes recommendations but it's up to each country to decide who they want to allow in.
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:54   #60
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Re: On-Board COVID Testing for Long Passages

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Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
The official EU website as of this morning still doesn't list the US as allowed for travel. I drilled down to France which didn't look good either. I checked Noonsite for contrary information and didn't find any.
Again, your information is out of date by four months. France welcomes vaccinated Americans with no restrictions whatsoever, and no testing requirement. Official French government site:

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/co...als-in-france/

I am not aware of any European country which at present is closed to vaxxed Yanks. Some require test; antigen test is usually enough.

Quote:
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Regarding rapid antigen tests, 20% worse results compared to PCR doesn't strike me as "a few points." *
As I wrote, latest thinking is that there is little practical difference between them. Because the science is showing that the false negatives from antigen tests are almost exclusively non-infectuous cases. Probably why most European countries have dropped the previous requirements for PCR tests.
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