Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, they let me in two days after the borders closed. And were very friendly about it.


But damn -- can't they just open the borders? To Finns at least???? What possible benefit is closing the borders to other countries with lower infection rates??

I think that's just a matter of time. You know finns, so slow to take initiative in such matters which is essential..

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Controlled re-opening of the Danish borders
Updated 29/5/20

https://www.visitdenmark.com/denmark...ls/coronavirus

The Danish government closed the borders with Denmark to control the spread of the corona virus. Danish citizens are allowed to re-enter the country and visitors from other countries can now enter Denmark again under certain conditions.

From June 15 2020, tourists from Germany, Norway and Iceland are allowed to return to Denmark and must show documentation of a valid booking on their arrival. This booking must be for a stay taking place outside the capital Copenhagen (Copenhagen Municipality and Frederiksberg Municipality) and must last at least six nights. Residences with the postcodes 1000 through to 2500 are considered to be in those locations. Tourists are allowed to visit Copenhagen but their stay must be outside it.

If a tourist wishing to enter shows clear signs of sickness, for example a cough, fever, or similar, they will not be allowed to cross the border.

For all other countries, the border closure is in operation until August 31. Borders may reopen earlier for Sweden and Finland.

From May 25, people with a permanent residence in one of the five Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden) or Germany will be allowed to re-enter Denmark if they fall into the following categories:

People who own a summer house in Denmark
Persons who have a relationship with a person living in Denmark or who are engaged to a person living in Denmark
People who have grandparents in Denmark
Business trips to and from Denmark if they are carried out responsibly in terms of health, may be resumed if the applicable precautionary measures are followed. Business trips must comply with industry-specific security precautions.
Except for the above, general family visits, tourism trips, business trips, study trips or similar are not grounds for entry into Denmark that are worthy of recognition. For further information on the documentation required to prove you have a relationship with someone living in Denmark,

Seems a sensible, evidence based approach.

The result of Sweden's sustained high daily death rate per capita is that it has closed the gap to France in deaths per million of population and, on current trajectories, will overtake them within a few days taking 7th on the global leaderboard. Some lists are excluding the very small population countries (San Marino pop 33,925 and Andorra pop 77,255 are above Sweden) and if we did that Sweden would be about to enter the top 5! Eek!

[Jonte]

This controlled opening of borders in Denmark seems to me a little strange. This weekend alot of danish people travel to Sweden to spent some time. To me the borders has never really closed to the virus only to the people.

Here in Scandinavia people move over the border all the time to work and such.

So a closed border to me is that is CLOSED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS TO STOP THE VIRUS but it's not. And why. I don't know probably economical.

Sweden didn't close there border because it would interfere whit transports of medical and important stuff. Then every one else closed so there were stuck in the middle.

So concerning stopping the spreading off the virus this seems little wierd to me. It's like the Danish government say to there people WE DON'T WANT SWEDE'S TO BRING THE VIRUS HERE BUT YOU CAN GET YOURSELVES I YOU WHANT, JUST OVER THAT BRIDGE.

Hope this is over soon.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Jonte

This controlled opening of borders in Denmark seems to me a little strange. This weekend alot of danish people travel to Sweden to spent some time. To me the borders has never really closed to the virus only to the people.

Here in Scandinavia people move over the border all the time to work and such.

So a closed border to me is that is CLOSED IN BOTH DIRECTIONS TO STOP THE VIRUS but it's not. And why. I don't know probably economical.

Sweden didn't close there border because it would interfere whit transports of medical and important stuff. Then every one else closed so there were stuck in the middle.

So concerning stopping the spreading off the virus this seems little wierd to me. It's like the Danish government say to there people WE DON'T WANT SWEDE'S TO BRING THE VIRUS HERE BUT YOU CAN GET YOURSELVES I YOU WHANT, JUST OVER THAT BRIDGE.

Hope this is over soon.

I'm not sure that's the reason why Sweden didn't close the border. Closing the border means many things, it would seem. For example, my state of Queensland here in Australia has a closed border to New South Wales to the south. What that means in practice is that some trade can still occur and you can apply for a pass to cross for various reasons. It's much easier to control that way and the risk is greatly reduced. Other places have adopted similar approaches.

Allowing Dane's to travel seems logical but I would agree that it doesn't seem too smart to allow Dane's to travel to Sweden. It may be that they think less Dane's would travel to Sweden than Swede's to Denmark? I don't know. I guess we'll see how that pans out.

We've already seen some relaxing of restrictions leading to second waves of infection but hopefully they'll be able to contain those quickly and continue down that path.

[Jonte]

Originally Posted by tp12

I'm not sure that's the reason why Sweden didn't close the border. Closing the border means many things, it would seem. For example, my state of Queensland here in Australia has a closed border to New South Wales to the south. What that means in practice is that some trade can still occur and you can apply for a pass to cross for various reasons. It's much easier to control that way and the risk is greatly reduced. Other places have adopted similar approaches.

Allowing Dane's to travel seems logical but I would agree that it doesn't seem too smart to allow Dane's to travel to Sweden. It may be that they think less Dane's would travel to Sweden than Swede's to Denmark? I don't know. I guess we'll see how that pans out.

We've already seen some relaxing of restrictions leading to second waves of infection but hopefully they'll be able to contain those quickly and continue down that path.

Well that's what they said anyway. And I think they had a point because much stuff was stuck in borders in the start of the outbreak. Anyway that part is behind us stuff keeps coming fairly well so I seems. And you probably right there are other things to.

[Dockhead]

Underlining how little we understand about how the epidemic spreads:

https://www.thelocal.dk/20200601/ban...tpcc=dk-latest

The latest theory is that "superspreaders" play a wholly disproportionate role in spreading the virus. Danish scientists trying to figure out why the rate of infections keep decreasing in Denmark after the mild restrictions were mostly lifted in the middle of April. They now think that bans on large gatherings are the most effective measures against the spread of the disease, and that the other measures may not have had much effect.

Denmark was the first country in Europe to re-open schools, never closed factories, never had stay at home orders, and never closed most shops.

"The ban on large gatherings, rather than school or bar closures, may have played the key role in slowing the coronavirus pandemic in Denmark, two researchers in the country have claimed. . . . 'The gain with the lockdown was probably not that big in itself,' Kim Sneppen, professor of biocomplexity at Copenhagen University, told The Local.

"Sneppen said that he and Simonsen had felt the need to make a new model after their existing model failed to explain why Denmark's reproduction number -- the number of people on average each infected person infects -- had stayed so low despite the reopening of schools and lifting of other restrictions.

"Sneppen said that the superspreader theory also much better explained the case of Sweden, where the reproduction number has fallen below 1 without many hard restrictions ever being put in place.

"'Our explanation is that Sweden has banned larger gatherings and events, that people have limited their diversity of social contacts, and thus prevented the superspreaders from spreading the infection,' Sneppen said.

". . . . But if it turns out to be right, Sneppen said Sweden's higher death toll might turn out to be mainly a result of its delay in banning large gatherings. 'They put a ban on big events, but it was some time later than Denmark,' he said."

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

According to this: https://www.timesunion.com/news/arti...s-15302900.php Danish borders will be open only to Norwegians, Germans, and Icelanders until after summer. Not to Finns. Damn!! This is contrary to all expectations, and puts all my plans in doubt. I will not be able to get back to my berth in Denmark; maybe I should give it up.



This will affect a lot of Baltic cruisers' plans.

What's the matter with them! We're almost all out of Corona here in Finland. Is this because we drink too much??

(pic: confirmed cases per M)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

What's the matter with them! We're almost all out of Corona here in Finland. Is this because we drink too much??

(pic: confirmed cases per M)

The borders issue is incredibly frustrating. Has thrown a monkey wrench into various plans of mine this summer


All eyes now on:



1. Germany opening borders on 15 June
2. Finland joining the Baltic travel bubble (Estonia is already completely open)

3. Nordic travel bubble after all? There are intense negotiations going on now to include both Finland and Sweden, after all, into the Denmark/Norway bubble.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The borders issue is incredibly frustrating. Has thrown a monkey wrench into various plans of mine this summer


All eyes now on:



1. Germany opening borders on 15 June
2. Finland joining the Baltic travel bubble (Estonia is already completely open)

3. Nordic travel bubble after all? There are intense negotiations going on now to include both Finland and Sweden, after all, into the Denmark/Norway bubble.

I dislike this "nationalistic" brand of coronavirus response, where everything bad lives outside our own borders. Traveling within Finland was taken off the "not recommended" list, but crossing the borders... noooo... dangerous... the "avoid travel abroad recommendation will be the last one revoked".

Today our foreign minister said FOREIGN air travel will likely require using face masks. Domestic travel though, it's safe and sound, and one government branch just published a study that face masks are mostly useless. (Until you cross the border, obviously.)

It's all a bit silly. I'm sure the virus has no idea of which country it's in. I'm sure it's more dangerous to travel from a corona-free zone to somewhere it's spreading fast, no matter if there's a border crossing somewhere along the route.

Sailing on your own boat is likely the safest way to travel between these countries at the moment. Too bad we're not a big industry (like in Greece) over here, so I'm pretty sure nobody really cares about us

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I dislike this "nationalistic" brand of coronavirus response, where everything bad lives outside our own borders. Traveling within Finland was taken off the "not recommended" list, but crossing the borders... noooo... dangerous... the "avoid travel abroad recommendation will be the last one revoked".

Today our foreign minister said FOREIGN air travel will likely require using face masks. Domestic travel though, it's safe and sound, and one government branch just published a study that face masks are mostly useless. (Until you cross the border, obviously.)

It's all a bit silly. I'm sure the virus has no idea of which country it's in. I'm sure it's more dangerous to travel from a corona-free zone to somewhere it's spreading fast, no matter if there's a border crossing somewhere along the route.

Sailing on your own boat is likely the safest way to travel between these countries at the moment. Too bad we're not a big industry (like in Greece) over here, so I'm pretty sure nobody really cares about us

I agree entirely. Fear and nationalism and all kinds of other ugly things have come out of this crisis. People should think more critically.



I can say however that I flew on an Air Baltic flight next week -- welcome to pandemic flying. They handed out masks and kept every other seat empty. It was fine. I think this will be the new normal for air travel, for a while.

[Montanan]

Sweden is rushing to launch a formal inquiry into its no-lockdown coronavirus strategy, as its death rate remains among the world's highest

Sweden is accelerating its review into the success of its coronavirus strategy, which controversially did not involve a lockdown and kept many businesses open.

Prime Minister Stefan Löfven previously said Sweden would hold an inquiry after the outbreak, but told the Aftonbladet newspaper on Monday that a commission would be appointed sooner.

Sweden is facing criticism as its death toll rises to one of the world's highest. It is also not meeting its target for testing.

Around half of Swedish virus deaths take place in care homes, a major point of contention.

But the government has said the no-lockdown plan is helping to reduce the chance a second wave, and said it's not clear if a lockdown would have had a better result.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sweden-ru...122428968.html

As my username indicates I am a Montanan, our State locked down early literally minutes before the first documented death by Covid and is now entering into a Phase 2 of reopening, Phase 1 was Stay At Home starting March 26th. The State has a population of just over 1 million thus about 1/10th that of Sweden. Our State has recorded 523 confirmed cases and 17 deaths. 461 have recovered and there are 41 active cases. Test, trace and isolate protocols are in place and testing if ramping with a goal to be at 60,000+ per month. The total number of tests completed in the state increased to 40,657 with 859 tests completed during the previous 24-hour reporting period. Presently, two [2] people are hospitalized. We added 4 new cases yesterday.

We are having a bit of an outbreak in a couple of prisons. By comparison to most other places in the USA and much of Europe, Montana has so far progressed well through the pandemic [as have the States of Hawaii and Alaska].

We fear that new infections may arise as the fourteen day quarantine upon entry to the State has been lifted as of June 1st and that now allows for out of state tourism to initiate, especially being drawn to the two major national parks [Yellowstone and Glacier] which each park individually having summer time visitors of more than double of our State's entire resident population. Vast waves of tourists arrive in June, July and August. The four seasons of Montana being June, July, August and Winter.

The Canadian border forms the entirety of the northern border of Montana and remains closed to just essential travel and the Canadian border and Canada's adjoining National Park form the northern boundary of Glacier National Park. We miss our Canadian neighbors. The Blackfoot Nation has closed up its large reservation from non-member travel which effectively closes access to Glacier National Park from the East entrances and that leaves just the single western entrance to the National Park which Park is slated to have limited service opening in mid-June. Yellowstone National Park is opened for access from the State of Wyoming side but remains closed from the Montana side which is typically the major entry side to the very popular and famous park. Montana is expected to open access around mid-June. Yellowstone and Glacier will operate with greatly reduced services and internal access restrictions and are closely coordinating with the State, County and local municipalities as to the opening and operation of the parks. The local gateway towns rely heavily on Park tourism, but also fear the contagion that has essentially been not community spread in those communities to date. They welcome the tourists but not the virus.

This will not be a normal summer from a travel or tourism perspective.

Hope everyone stays healthy and safe and aids by keeping social distancing and limiting contacts to essential purposes.

[Dockhead]

Helsinki, a few hours ago.


People hugging, shaking hands, not much social distancing. Restaurants, theaters, cinemas, open again!!

A lot of bitterness here over the very soft "lockdown" which we had for about a month.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Helsinki, a few hours ago. Attachment 216483


People hugging, shaking hands, not much social distancing. Restaurants, theaters, cinemas, open again!!

A lot of bitterness here over the very soft "lockdown" which we had for about a month.

Dockhead, looks like a fine day in Helsinki.

Might you have a higher resolution image. I am having difficulty in seeing the multitude of viruses that are being community spread and are evidently running rampant in Sweden.

A harsh reality is that one must recognize that you might have taken one of the last pictures of one or more of those patrons having a pleasant time with a friend or loved one. So any guesses or bets as to which of those depicted in the image will likely become added to the list of those that died from Covid-19?

Clearly no attempts are being made to provide for social distancing protocols or mitigating community spread; well, ultimately you end up reaping what your sow. Hoping that they are spared from the disease even though they place themselves and others at risk.

[barnakiel]

ARC, that rally for cruisers, has just announced some guidelines on their website.


Probably relevant to those sailing out of EU North this summer to join the fleet in the Canaries.



The Canaries have not announced any take on this yet. Apparently sailing will be welcomed past July 1st.


Except no-one knows what if there is a second wave in the fall!


It would be pretty hopeless to leave the continent only to be trapped in Las Palmas later.



b.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Dockhead, looks like a fine day in Helsinki.

Might you have a higher resolution image. I am having difficulty in seeing the multitude of viruses that are being community spread and are evidently running rampant in Sweden.

A harsh reality is that one must recognize that you might have taken one of the last pictures of one or more of those patrons having a pleasant time with a friend or loved one. So any guesses or bets as to which of those depicted in the image will likely become added to the list of those that died from Covid-19?

Clearly no attempts are being made to provide for social distancing protocols or mitigating community spread; well, ultimately you end up reaping what your sow. Hoping that they are spared from the disease even though they place themselves and others at risk.

Well, Sweden is only a step or two ahead of Finland in the progress of the disease; Finland will get there soon enough. With all this effort we have only slowed down the progress of the virus. We will all get it sooner or later. Finnish people are weary of the measures, and are taking a philosophical view.


There is not much sympathy anywhere these days in the Nordic countries, for lockdown. The health chiefs of Denmark, Norway, and Finland are all on record for saying that it was a mistake. There is a serious political scandal going on in Denmark over the politicians ordering lockdown against the advice of the scientists.