19-11-2021, 22:20
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#3766
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
I agree with you regarding natural immunity and the harmful scapegoating of the unvaccinated, but you do not correctly understand the study I posted. Suggest you reread it and have a look at my answers to Paul ( a few pages back (48 -49 ?) regarding what this study is about. Here it is again:
https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
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That study does not deal with vaccine effectiveness at all. It's an in vitro study of the effect of spike protein on certain cellular level mechanisms. The results suggest further study but so far have no implications for vaccine effectiveness, about which there is a mass of direct data, not hypotheses but actual data from millions of actually vaccinated people, showing very strong protection from any infection (not to speak of hospitalization and death), which wanes with time but which is still quite effective half a year after vaccination. Don't be confused about this.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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20-11-2021, 00:06
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#3767
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
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You need to read the link you provided. Firstly that graph isn’t in that link.
Secondly the piece /link referenced shows data that supports the effectiveness of the vaccines
For example
“Vaccine effectiveness
Several studies of vaccine effectiveness have been conducted in the UK which indicate that 2 doses of vaccine are between 65% and 95% effective at preventing symptomatic disease with COVID-19 with the Delta variant, with higher levels of protection against severe disease including hospitalisation and death. There is some evidence of waning of protection against infection and symptomatic disease over time, though protection against severe disease remains high in most groups at least 5 months after the second dose.”
Stop making up stuff
The vaccines don’t prevent delta infection , particularly after a few months , but they limit serious illness and death.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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20-11-2021, 00:26
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#3768
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch (and +3 smaller)
Posts: 2,738
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
The information you are seeking is in the link I provided. Here it is again. Table 4 gives you the emergency care; table 5 gives you deaths. Tell me, in sheer numbers for all ages combined, which group is larger.. the vaccinated or the unvaccinated?
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On purpose you don't take into account the much larger amount of vaccinated. With your logic speeding should go unpunished too as also drivers obeying speed limits crash sometimes..
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20-11-2021, 00:44
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#3769
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in Montt.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,180
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Seeing what is going on in the Netherlands and Austria just now I think that much of Europe should have followed either the Nordic or the Australian model from the get go.
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20-11-2021, 01:25
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#3770
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,140
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Dutch police opened fire on protesters, and seven people were injured in rioting, that erupted in downtown Rotterdam, at a demonstration against recently introduced COVID-19 restrictions, and government plans to restrict access for unvaccinated people to some venues.
The Dutch city’s Mayor, Ahmed Aboutaleb, told reporters that “on a number of occasions the police felt it necessary to draw their weapons to defend themselves” as rioters ran rampage through the port city’s central shopping district, setting fires and throwing rocks and fireworks at officers, in what Aboutaleb called “an orgy of violence”.
The Netherlands went back into western Europe’s first partial lockdown of the winter season a week ago. The restrictions, which affect restaurants, shops and sport, are expected to remain in force for at least three weeks.
The Netherlands is trying to control a new wave of the coronavirus, with more than 21,000 new cases reported on Friday.
The government is now considering excluding the unvaccinated from bars and restaurants, allowing access only to those who have been fully vaccinated or who have recovered from the disease.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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20-11-2021, 01:54
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#3771
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Boat: Trident marine Voyager 30
Posts: 814
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
Here's the stats on UK infections. Looking at this graph, what conclusions do you come to regarding the necessity for covid passports apartheid policy against the unvaccinated?
You can find all the data from the UK government here for week 45. Same question.
https://assets.publishing.service.go..._-_week_45.pdf
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When I read the document you linked to it's obvious that the vaccines are very effective and reduces the risk of infection, hospitalization, death and transmission!
The graph in your post is not in the document.
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20-11-2021, 02:49
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#3772
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,585
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
It's the LSD the vaccine is laced with.. got them tripping and believing they were immune.
Acid warps minds...
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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20-11-2021, 04:19
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#3773
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
"Orgie der Gewalt in den Niederländern" -- "Orgy of Violence in the Netherlands"
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-17644125.html
Ghastly. According to FAZ, football hooligans were involved.
In other news, the curfew and business closings in Latvia have been lifted after Latvia has come down from one of the worst outbreaks in Europe. Since 15 November, shops, restaurants, and, thank God, theatres are open again. But only for the vaccinated. No longer do they accept a fresh test in lieu of vaccination. The previous measures were in place for only 3 weeks.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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20-11-2021, 04:33
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#3774
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
A meta-analysis of studies on the effectiveness of Invermectin against COVID-19 shows that Invermectin likely does help save lives of COVID patients -- those that have worms. Others are not helped. See: https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...ose-with-worms
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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20-11-2021, 06:18
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#3775
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 312
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Synthetic vaccine designed to prime T-Cells to rapidly remove viral-infected cells from the body after infection
https://emergexvaccines.com/emergex-...ine-candidate/
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20-11-2021, 07:09
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#3776
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Spain
Boat: 1983 Shannon 28
Posts: 552
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
That study does not deal with vaccine effectiveness at all. It's an in vitro study of the effect of spike protein on certain cellular level mechanisms. The results suggest further study but so far have no implications for vaccine effectiveness, about which there is a mass of direct data, not hypotheses but actual data from millions of actually vaccinated people, showing very strong protection from any infection (not to speak of hospitalization and death), which wanes with time but which is still quite effective half a year after vaccination. Don't be confused about this.
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Correct, this study does not deal with vaccine effectiveness. To be clear, I have not stated anywhere in my discussion of this study that it does. And, yes, it is an in vitro study of the effect of spike proteins on certain cellular mechanisms. That part you got correct, albeit your summary is so vague as to be meaningless.
I will summarize my comments to Paul several pages back in our discussion regarding this study:
This paper discusses the mechanism of how spike proteins inhibit DNA repair necessary for the production of B and T immune cells crucial to adaptive immunity. The research examined subunits as well as the full length proteins and concluded that only the full length proteins such as those produced by the vaccine response inhibit such repair. The take away from this study is that current vaccines may be safer if another process rather than the full spike protein were used in order to prevent damage to B and T immune cells which are key to maintaining adaptive immunity and preventing immunosuppression.
Direct quotes from the paper to support this summary:
"...Spike protein contains two major subunits, S1 and S2, as well as several functional domains or repeats [22] (Figure 2A). In the native state, spike proteins exist as inactive full–length proteins. During viral infection, host cell proteases such as furin protease activate the S protein by cleaving it into S1 and S2 subunits, which is necessary for viral entry into the target cell [23]. We further explored different subunits of the spike protein to elucidate the functional features required for DNA repair inhibition. Only the full–length spike protein strongly inhibited both NHEJ and HR repair..."
" our data provide valuable details on the involvement of spike protein subunits in DNA damage repair, indicating that full–length spike–based vaccines may inhibit the recombination of V(D)J in B cells, which is also consistent with a recent study that a full–length spike–based vaccine induced lower antibody titers compared to the RBD–based vaccine [28]. This suggests that the use of antigenic epitopes of the spike as a SARS–CoV–2 vaccine might be safer and more efficacious than the full–length spike"
Full paper
https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
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20-11-2021, 07:19
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#3777
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
Correct, this study does not deal with vaccine effectiveness. To be clear, I have not stated anywhere in my discussion of this study that it does. And, yes, it is an in vitro study of the effect of spike proteins on certain cellular mechanisms. That part you got correct, albeit your summary is so vague as to be meaningless.
I will summarize my comments to Paul several pages back in our discussion regarding this study:
This paper discusses the mechanism of how spike proteins inhibit DNA repair necessary for the production of B and T immune cells crucial to adaptive immunity. The research examined subunits as well as the full length proteins and concluded that only the full length proteins such as those produced by the vaccine response inhibit such repair. The take away from this study is that current vaccines may be safer if another process rather than the full spike protein were used in order to prevent damage to B and T immune cells which are key to maintaining adaptive immunity and preventing immunosuppression.
Direct quotes from the paper to support this summary:
"...Spike protein contains two major subunits, S1 and S2, as well as several functional domains or repeats [22] (Figure 2A). In the native state, spike proteins exist as inactive full–length proteins. During viral infection, host cell proteases such as furin protease activate the S protein by cleaving it into S1 and S2 subunits, which is necessary for viral entry into the target cell [23]. We further explored different subunits of the spike protein to elucidate the functional features required for DNA repair inhibition. Only the full–length spike protein strongly inhibited both NHEJ and HR repair..."
" our data provide valuable details on the involvement of spike protein subunits in DNA damage repair, indicating that full–length spike–based vaccines may inhibit the recombination of V(D)J in B cells, which is also consistent with a recent study that a full–length spike–based vaccine induced lower antibody titers compared to the RBD–based vaccine [28]. This suggests that the use of antigenic epitopes of the spike as a SARS–CoV–2 vaccine might be safer and more efficacious than the full–length spike"
Full paper
https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
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Sure, and if all this is confirmed with further research, then possibly this will be of help in developing the next generation of vaccines, making them EVEN MORE safe and EVEN MORE effective. Great! But that is certainly not a logical reason to wait the year or three it takes to work that out, before getting vaccinated with the very safe and very effective vaccines we already have.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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20-11-2021, 07:48
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#3778
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Spain
Boat: 1983 Shannon 28
Posts: 552
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
Here's the stats on UK infections. Looking at this graph, what conclusions do you come to regarding the necessity for covid passports apartheid policy against the unvaccinated?
You can find all the data from the UK government here for week 45. Same question.
https://assets.publishing.service.go..._-_week_45.pdf
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Goboatingnow, Teddydriver, Anders and Pinguino: I am replying to all of you regarding your comments to my post above as they all more or less make the same points.
First of all, yes, the graph is not included in the linked data for obvious and clear reasons: they are from different timelines. As clearly labeled, the graph is from the period 4-31 Oct. The link data is for week 45.
Secondly, you are all chasing a red herring with your "vaccines are effective' rebuttals. Look again at my post above, I am not disputing that here. Rather, I am asking for your conclusions whether this data supports the necessity for covid passports apartheid policy against the unvaccinated. None of you has addressed this question.
If you do still wish to comment on this point, keep in mind that ( to my understanding at least) the justifications as often stated by supporters of such a policy are that the numbers of infections and hospitalizations are greater among the unvaccinated and, therefore, not only to they pose a greater threat of spreading the virus but also pose a much higher burden on medical resources. Looking at this data, are these justification still valid?
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20-11-2021, 08:17
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#3779
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Spain
Boat: 1983 Shannon 28
Posts: 552
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Sure, and if all this is confirmed with further research, then possibly this will be of help in developing the next generation of vaccines, making them EVEN MORE safe and EVEN MORE effective. Great! But that is certainly not a logical reason to wait the year or three it takes to work that out, before getting vaccinated with the very safe and very effective vaccines we already have.
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Incredible. Instead of honestly acknowledging that your understanding of this paper was pretty close to zero, assuming you did read it, you now have the temerity to insinuate that in some way my posting of this paper and commentary was arguing against vaccines
I posted a paper which should be of interest to all who are vaccinated and took the time to break the dense information in that research down to make it more accessible to readers here. And this is the sort of crap I get for my effort
Yeah.... you're welcome.
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20-11-2021, 09:21
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#3780
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Bestevaer 49
Posts: 16,151
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Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
Here's the stats on UK infections. Looking at this graph, what conclusions do you come to regarding the necessity for covid passports apartheid policy against the unvaccinated?
………..
You can find all the data from the UK government here for week 45. Same question.
https://assets.publishing.service.go..._-_week_45.pdf
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Hi Greg
You ask what conclusions can be drawn from the data presented.
Not many from this raw data, particularly considering the document states several time that no conclusions can be drawn from these figures regarding vaccine effectiveness for the following reasons:
“ These raw data should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness as the data does not take into account inherent biases present such as differences in risk, behaviour and testing in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.”
The actual effectiveness of 2 vaccines (AZ and Pfizer) against hospitalisation and mortality is presented and it is still excellent: 80-90% even at the 20+ week mark following the second dose, despite dropping slightly over time. Symptomatic disease reduction is less (50% & 70% respectively), but still significant.
It is sensible to read the entire document, rather than zooming in on bits of information without clarification and therefore jumping to incorrect conclusions.
SWL
__________________
SWL (enthusiastic amateur)
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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