Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Finland seems to be going its own way concerning ending pandemic restrictions. Restrictions have been more or less completely eliminated now in Denmark, Norway and Sweden, but a few restrictions continue in Finland, and the government appears intent on leaving them in place long-term. A law on implementing a so-called "Corona Pass", proving either vaccination, recovery, or recent testing, and required for people to avoid restrictions such as midnight closing for bars, is working its way through parliament: https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland...irus-pass.html


Interesting. Other Nordic countries are going the opposite way; Denmark for example has just closed all of its rapid testing centers across the country.

I wish England started with a corona pass! Right now the numbers are high and going the wrong way. I expect another lockdown this winter and EU countries may close the border again this winter. I hope we are already in Spain when that happens.

[GordMay]

I'm not editorializing, just reporting:

Why the UK’s COVID strategy failed

The United Kingdom became one of the countries hit hardest by COVID-19 “because of the official scientific advice the government received, not in spite of it”, finds an investigation [1] of the UK response to the pandemic.
The report [1], from a cross-party parliamentary group, says that, despite the country having “some of the best expertise available anywhere in the world”, the government adopted a “fatalistic approach”, that cost many thousands of lives.
Scientific and political decision-makers were hobbled by ‘groupthink’, a lack of international perspective, a weak testing and contact-tracing system, and doubts about how the public would respond to health restrictions.

More about ➥ https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58876089

And ➥ https://www.ft.com/content/20e6bf0b-...b-e1d4351368be

[1] “Coronavirus: lessons learned to date” ~ House of Commons Health and Social Care, and Science and Technology Committees
➥ https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...78687/default/

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, closing borders to foreigners was pretty much universal. Sweden for example followed the EU recommendations and closed up tight to visitors from outside of the EU without a "worthy purpose" (business trip, family visits, etc.) like pretty much the entire EU, and restricted border crossings even from within the EU during various times.

But restrictions on one's own citizens with regard to crossing the border did vary quite a bit. I think most countries allowed their citizens to come and go fairly freely (subject maybe to testing and some kind of quarantine; voluntary in the case of countries like Finland), but some like the UK imposed more severe quarantines, including hotel quarantine, others like Australia imposed hotel quarantine plus fairly severe quotas which left many Australians unable to come home for long periods of times, and others like Russia prohibited their citizens from leaving the country. Did Australia do that also? I don't quite recall. Yes but despite that over 250,000 people have been able to get departure permits, some on multiple occassions. Also happened in Chile Living in Northern Europe, I have been somewhat thwarted at various times from travelling as I like, but nevertheless since the beginning of the pandemic, have visited 12 countries on three continents, and always returned to Finland without any impediment other than testing (sometimes free testing on arrival) and then vaccination, and during some periods voluntary quarantine. Cruising by sailboat in the Baltic Sea among the various littoral countries (original topic of this thread) was almost completely unrestricted during both summer of 2020 and summer of 2021.

But "lockdown" is certainly not a "nonsense phrase" -- "lockdown" has a precise meaning, even if the precise meaning is often ignored by sloppy writers and sloppy thinkers:Also ignored by sloppy governments - this from the ACT government website today 'The ACT is currently in lockdown and Canberrans are being asked to stay at home to assist in our response to positive cases of COVID-19 in the ACT.' Note - asked not ordered and then follows a raft of reasons you can be out and about.
I think that while it may have a strict dictionary meaning that would apply in some 'lockdowns' where you were not allowed to leave your home for any reason and food was brought to your house by the military. For most jurisdictions it has largely lost any strict meaning. A bit like saying you have 'the flu' when you have a runny nose.
"Noun:
lockdown (countable and uncountable, plural lockdowns) The confinement of people in their own rooms (e.g., in a school) or cells (in a prison), or to their own homes or areas (e.g., in the case of a city- or nation-wide issue) as a security measure after or amid a disturbance or pandemic, etc. " https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lockdown

AKA "stay at home order". Like border restrictions, that is a movement restriction, but of an entirely different character, and different level of severity, to border restrictions, as almost all people ordinarily leave their houses every day or many times a day, and few people cross borders even every month. So profoundly disruptive of normal life for most people. If your thesis was "all countries restricted movement in some way or another, therefore all the restrictions were the same", then this is totally wrong, even looking only at border restrictions.

Meanwhile the ACT ( 97.5% of eligible population vaccinated - don't clap just throw money) is lifting its lockdown and is easing restrictions from midnight tonight. Note - 'lockdown' gone but some restrictions remain.
New ACT restrictions ( light blue) and old restrictions ( dark blue) can be seen here
https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/restr...t-restrictions

Covid 'Lockdown' is whatever you want it to be, it is rarely equivalent to being locked in a prison cell.

[goboatingnow]

People write as if travel restrictions or lockdowns ( of whatever level of restrictions ) were somehow “ forced “ on an unwilling population

Certainly in Ireland , public health measure had in excess of 80 % support

Secondly many measures were forced on the government by massive public opinion , this included shutting schools for a term , and certain restrictions on incoming people to the country.

In fact there was considerable public pressure which the gov refused to bow to , to restrict travel with Northern Ireland.

The radio was full of people “ enjoying “ lockdown , rediscovering their cooking skills , sharing time with partners. Etc

Various voluntary travel restrictions were followed voluntarily by the public. I live near a beach in a rural area but which has a considerable number of holiday homes. For months nobody visited those homes.

In fact social pressure not to travel far was the biggest factor not any light touch “ enforcement “

I really don’t buy this enforced infringement of freedoms but. This was a “ war” people were dying. The public put its shoulder to the wheel.

What was clear at various stages of the pandemic that reducing social contact was the most effective way to halt spiralling cases , by extension reducing social contact will limits journeys and place restrictions on gatherings and so forth.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

People write as if travel restrictions or lockdowns ( of whatever level of restrictions ) were somehow “ forced “ on an unwilling population

Certainly in Ireland , public health measure had in excess of 80 % support

Secondly many measures were forced on the government by massive public opinion , this included shutting schools for a term , and certain restrictions on incoming people to the country.

In fact there was considerable public pressure which the gov refused to bow to , to restrict travel with Northern Ireland.

The radio was full of people “ enjoying “ lockdown , rediscovering their cooking skills , sharing time with partners. Etc

Various voluntary travel restrictions were followed voluntarily by the public. I live near a beach in a rural area but which has a considerable number of holiday homes. For months nobody visited those homes.

In fact social pressure not to travel far was the biggest factor not any light touch “ enforcement “

I really don’t buy this enforced infringement of freedoms but. This was a “ war” people were dying. The public put its shoulder to the wheel.

What was clear at various stages of the pandemic that reducing social contact was the most effective way to halt spiralling cases , by extension reducing social contact will limits journeys and place restrictions on gatherings and so forth.

This is also how it seemed to us here in the UK.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Sos

This is also how it seemed to us here in the UK.

I think if you polled the under 40’s (particularly those with young children and those under 30ish) in the UK they would give a very different answer, not so much for the first lockdown when there was so much uncertainty and fear, but particularly for the second lockdown.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . Covid 'Lockdown' is whatever you want it to be, it is rarely equivalent to being locked in a prison cell.

Well, I don't agree. Stay at home orders, whether or not they are worthwhile, are a massive disruption of life for most people, with serious adverse consequences for many. If you happen not to be one who suffered from them, don't let that blind you to the suffering of others.



There are different degrees of stringency in different stay at home orders -- of course. That doesn't mean they are "whatever you want them to be". In most countries which implemented them, stay at home orders have been backed up with the threat of significant fines and jail time. Being at home is of course not equivalent to being locked up in a jail cell, but for many people being forced by threat of arrest and jail (in France, 100,000 extra police were deployed to enforce the stay at home orders) to stay at home is a pretty serious thing, costly to themselves and to society.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, I don't agree. Stay at home orders, whether or not they are worthwhile, are a massive disruption of life for most people, with serious adverse consequences for many. If you happen not to be one who suffered from them, don't let that blind you to the suffering of others.



There are different degrees of stringency in different stay at home orders -- of course. That doesn't mean they are "whatever you want them to be". In most countries which implemented them, stay at home orders have been backed up with the threat of significant fines and jail time. Being at home is of course not equivalent to being locked up in a jail cell, but for many people being forced by threat of arrest and jail (in France, 100,000 extra police were deployed to enforce the stay at home orders) to stay at home is a pretty serious thing, costly to themselves and to society.

Disruptive perhaps , certainly a few sectors were disproportionally hit.

But certainly here the generous pandemic payments certainly sheltered the lower paid ( and part time made a killing on it) , people could still go out to excercise , Shop etc, get takeaways and so forth. Certainly in the rural areas life went on more or less normally.

What lockdowns did was wake people up to the disadvantages of dense urban living resulting in a big exodus to the country side ( or buying second homes ) it also woke people up to the advantages of blended work in the office and at home. This “ experiment “ is still ongoing but will have profound effects in my opinion.

Perhaps certainly societies found it hard , especially those that distrust authorities or governments. Here the police have enormous respect and dealt with infringements with a “ chat” and some advice etc. There was enormous voluntary compliance. Shop mask wearing was 100 % compliance , no would dream of arguing about it. Zero incidents

Where the public have widespread support , the community swung in behind the process. My postman delivered food free ( he’s a bit of social media hero ) , the post office delivered newspapers free , My elderly mother never had so much support and visits. Everything you needed was delivered to your door and the houses and gardens around me never looked better.

While the long term consequences remain to be seen the restrictions had far less effect then the gloom and doom preachers ( or the personal freedom merchants )

Kids will recover fast little evidence is emerging of any significant long term issues

The economy is flying , despite early doom mongers ( the central statistics office was wrong almost everywhere about the econony and spent the last Two years correcting itself !!)

Now the issue is convincing people that 50 hours a week working for the minimum wage ( €16/hour ) is worth it . !!

People were also stunned about how much they saved by not having that daily latte and many are revising just how they live. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.

To sum up lockdowns actually demonstrated to people how a nice caring socially supportive society could be a very pleasant experience. We shall see

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

. . . Kids will recover fast little evidence is emerging of any significant long term issues . .

I don't know about lockdowns, but school closings are devastating to children, and there is massive evidence of this.


From UNESCO:


https://en.unesco.org/covid19/educat...e/consequences


Science on the subject:


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32904951/


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34069468/


On educational losses:



https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/pol...ures-2cea926e/


The effects are devasting, and cascade into secondary and tertiary harm. The educational losses are generally permanent. I don't think there's much controversy about any of this.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

……
To sum up lockdowns actually demonstrated to people how a nice caring socially supportive society could be a very pleasant experience. We shall see

Hi Goboatingnow

I think the impact of the lockdown varied dramatically in the UK and in Australia (the only countries I have good knowledge of) according to type of accomodation (house with garden or apartment) and whether the home was in a larger city (where most of the UK’s and even more so Australia’s population lives) or more rural.

Imagine city living in an apartment, no garden, one hour a day permitted for exercise, several people living together with children that needed home schooling in the mix. Even a week would be torture, let alone a few months. Couple that with several family members employed on a temporary basis (as I understand it there were no benefits paid then) and it becomes a living hell.

We were lucky enough to experience the second lockdown in a rural area with a low population and apart from not being able to socialise (and in keeping with the spirit of the regulations we opted not to sail) we were not impacted at all. Same goes for most others in the mainly older aged neighbouring community. Our experience of the community spirit was much like yours, but this is far, far from universal.

Most people under lockdown conditions have suffered badly.

SWL

PS I do agree there are positives that will emerge when the dust settles, and working from home for white collar workers (enabling migration to rural areas) or working less hours and focussing on quality of life are just some of these.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

...
Imagine city living in an apartment, no garden, one hour a day permitted for exercise, ...

It can be worse than that scenario.

Imagine living alone with no in person human contact for months and months.

I have many coworker friends that are single, young, and living alone, most in small apartments. While some lived in a state with relatively easy lock down requirements compared to other countries, another lives in a state that was on the harsher side, and they all suffered not being able to socialize with anyone, much less anyone their age.

Not be able to go play sports, go to a night club, DATE, eat in a restaurant, go to the gym, see a movie, visiting family, etc., meant they were living in a prison without walls. Well, in a prison, you actually would have other people to talk too, and have access to exercise yards...

Sure they could come and go from their apartments, we did not have regulations that restricted your movement, but they had no where to go. Even the parks were closed which made no sense what so ever.

Eventually, when some of the lock down measures were eased, they said f.... it, and got on with their lives as best they could. One did get the virus, but being young, it was no big deal.

The impact on school age kids has been harsh too. The impact on their education, or lack there of, is starting to be seen and it is not good. We know kids, who could drive and get out, but their parents, out of fear, kept their teenagers locked up from seeing other kids their age. That is not healthy either.

Later,
Dan

[Wotname]

One thing this pandemic has proved once and for all - we are herd animals. Possibly one of the most 'herd-like' of all the herd species. We really do like to flock together and press the flesh; anything that disrupts this is painful to many.

As for lockdown pains, I guess those who think stay at home orders are tough never their youth in a english style boarding school.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

One thing this pandemic has proved once and for all - we are herd animals. Possibly one of the most 'herd-like' of all the herd species.

It has become very much apparent to me that Australians’ ability to think clearly and independently shuts down when the instinct to follow the herd kicks in, and this seems to kick in frighteningly easily and far more so than I have experienced in the UK. The national identity of being independent, irreverent, free thinkers is well and truly a thing of the past.

One other thing that has been highlighted during the recent events in Australia is that we are pack hunters.

This is my country and my people so this realisation has hit me hard.

Originally Posted by Wotname

We really do like to flock together and press the flesh; anything that disrupts this is painful to many.

I have never been into big social gatherings, but in small doses contact with others has always enriched my life. What I missed most was the physical aspect: the handshakes, the warm hugs. Even now that I am back to exchanging these, it is awkwardly preceded by the query “Are you shaking hands again yet?”. I simply beamed a few days ago when I received a natural hug at the end of a shared evening with new friends.

SWL

[El Pinguino]

A few months of school closings devastating to children?

How about those that for many years have been - by choice - home schooing l their children for their entire education?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

As for lockdown pains, I guess those who think stay at home orders are tough never spent their youth in a english style boarding school.

Don't knock it - where would the Empire have been without the British education system!!!!
Nothing a damn good thrashing wouldn't sort out in any schoolboy.