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Old 18-03-2020, 14:47   #1
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New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Please read carefully:

Because of the very high interest and posting activity regarding COVID-19, the site team has established this temporary new forum to contain all threads related to this topic. We have moved existing threads on this topic to this new forum and will continue to move posts and new threads to this area of the forum, regardless of where they were initially posted.

All Community Rules will be strictly enforced in this forum. Posts in violation of the rules may be deleted without notification based on the judgment of the moderators. In addition, posts that exhibit fear-mongering, politically charged statements or other anti-social behavior may result in the author’s posting privileges being restricted. Please be especially cautious about posting politically charged content and be sure to report problem posts.

There has been a lot of very useful information and perspective shared here on this topic, but unfortunately also a good bit that doesn't align with forum rules. Please respect your fellow members by thinking through this before posting:

- Is it true?
- Is it helpful?
- Is it kind?

If you have any questions about this, feel free to message any moderator.

Wishing good health to all,
The Site Team

P.S. Now go wash your hands!
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Old 18-03-2020, 15:43   #2
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

How to ignore posts in this forum:

Some folks may not want to see a steady stream of posts from this topic area. Good news - you can ignore them! Here's how:

Using the full web version of the site (not mobile):

1. Open the Covid Containment area forum
2. Look at the top of the list of threads for the Forum tools link and click
3. Select "ignore" from the menu items

Posts forum this section of the boar will not appear in the right side new feed on in the new posts lists. You can still read this section of the forum by clicking into the forum itself or you can undo these changes any time you desire.

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Old 18-03-2020, 18:58   #3
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Thank you, Janet.

Ann
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Old 02-12-2021, 05:09   #4
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Is it true?

Isn't that the crux of the debate? and who is the arbiter of truth?

This is the problem posed with this kind of qualification for speaking on a topic.
The US was founded upon the concept of free speach. Its the reason the 1st Amendment was crafted. This is why the US is held up to the world as a free democracy.
The limiting of free speech anywhere, is a threat to free speech everywhere - The good doctor MLK said something like that.
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Old 02-12-2021, 05:23   #5
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotan View Post
Is it true?

Isn't that the crux of the debate? and who is the arbiter of truth?

This is the problem posed with this kind of qualification for speaking on a topic.
The US was founded upon the concept of free speach. Its the reason the 1st Amendment was crafted. This is why the US is held up to the world as a free democracy.
The limiting of free speech anywhere, is a threat to free speech everywhere - The good doctor MLK said something like that.
Not to quibble Rotan, but the US ranks 44th in freedom of the press/speech:

https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table

and ranks 25th in the freedom ranking of democracies (the US is classified as a "flawed democracy"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
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Old 02-12-2021, 05:40   #6
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotan View Post
Is it true?

Isn't that the crux of the debate? and who is the arbiter of truth?

This is the problem posed with this kind of qualification for speaking on a topic.
The US was founded upon the concept of free speach. Its the reason the 1st Amendment was crafted. This is why the US is held up to the world as a free democracy.
The limiting of free speech anywhere, is a threat to free speech everywhere - The good doctor MLK said something like that.
Firstly, despite the dominance of all things American, this is an international forum, so it's not only US standards that apply.

Secondly, the First Amendment applies to government-controlled spaces, not private.

Thirdly, on the matter of "truth", there are established standards for determining such things. We have plenty of credible institutions and experts who can make these determinations with regard to Covid-19.

Other social media platforms are embracing their responsibility to identify outright falsehoods with regard to Covid-19. CF doesn't have the resources to manage all the misinformation, so instead of relying solely on the moderators to curate truth, we can all step in and help them by flagging clear false statements.
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Old 02-12-2021, 06:01   #7
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pirate Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post

Thirdly, on the matter of "truth", there are established standards for determining such things. We have plenty of credible sources..
Standards that have only served to aid and protect untruths by 'vested interests' many times in the past.. all supplied by 'experts' and their 'credible sources'..
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Old 02-12-2021, 07:19   #8
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

I spend a good part of my day challenging truths both from internal operational experience, and from a client perspective when they bring in preconceptions from 'experts' on the net. Much of both sources contain truth but for sure the internet sources are clearly trying to fill a page and create easy answers. This serves a useful function for most of us as we can then identify a position and then work to prove or disprove it through further research.

For the reason above, I may be one who gravitates more quickly than others to the 'untruths' as a place to work from and to ask questions of. Most of the time this process asks me to use anecdotes (unproven in a statistical sense) from my own life which I clearly know to have happened but may not understand all the reasons for. This could be a sail trim question or the observation that 4 friends had heart attacks last spring after taking the vaccine where I couldn't remember the last heart attack from my group of friends.
While I certainly understand the desire of many to prevent any information that might distract/prevent people from getting vaccinated, I prefer to hear the point and the counterpoints so I can from my own view. This view has often morphed from the beginning of this pandemic on many elements of it as I assemble new facts emerging with much aggravation that more facts are hard to find and far harder to verify.

My vote is always to only eliminate uncivil debate as a way to force us to stay as far from the temptation to make it personal as possible.
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Old 02-12-2021, 07:34   #9
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

thank you Janet
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Old 02-12-2021, 08:04   #10
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Reading a book

OPEN
How Collaboration and Curiosity Shaped Humankind
By Johan Norberg

If by debate we mean open interchange of ideas this forum could have a positive influence on understanding events surrounding the current “pestilence” that is not the first to affect humans.
Previous pandemics including , Antonime Plague,Plague of Justinian,Black Death,Spanish Flu etc.
Been a physician (retired fortunately) after trying to keep up with this pandemic nevertheless very early on the start made an appointment with my family Doc, WE went over my medical history, ongoing treatment, lifestyle such as diet, outdoors activities, type of potential exposure to virus carriers like going shopping, restaurants etc.
That gave us a baseline on what type of precautions best be tailored to my specific needs including, what type of mask to use, vaccination for Covid, Flu, Influence.
reading the news and discussions were also entertaining at time of restricted sailing and cruising but in no ways should influence the medical management of my needs.

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Old 02-12-2021, 08:21   #11
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Firstly, despite the dominance of all things American, this is an international forum, so it's not only US standards that apply.

Secondly, the First Amendment applies to government-controlled spaces, not private.

Thirdly, on the matter of "truth", there are established standards for determining such things. We have plenty of credible institutions and experts who can make these determinations with regard to Covid-19.

Other social media platforms are embracing their responsibility to identify outright falsehoods with regard to Covid-19. CF doesn't have the resources to manage all the misinformation, so instead of relying solely on the moderators to curate truth, we can all step in and help them by flagging clear false statements.
Which at best ends up with the thread being shutdown by CF mods, not the false posts being deleted. So the falsehoods, lies and nut job conspiracy statements are preserved for the generations to Google search on CF. Even the 'intellecrual' threads are chock full of over the top bias and gaslighting of Covid opinions.

This place would be a lot better of if all the Covid entertainment posts and threads were entirely deleted. If it isn't directly, not tangentially, related to cruising or sailing, put it on another forum, not CF. I'd suggest Facebook, but they already ban most of that.
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Old 02-12-2021, 08:36   #12
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Which at best ends up with the thread being shutdown by CF mods, not the false posts being deleted. So the falsehoods, lies and nut job conspiracy statements are preserved for the generations to Google search on CF. Even the 'intellecrual' threads are chock full of over the top bias and gaslighting of Covid opinions.

This place would be a lot better of if all the Covid entertainment posts and threads were entirely deleted. If it isn't directly, not tangentially, related to cruising or sailing, put it on another forum, not CF. I'd suggest Facebook, but they already ban most of that.

I appreciate your thought on this Paul, and I can see the wisdom. However, I disagree that Covid-19 discussion doesn't belong here. For some of us, this issue has been THE most important factor in our cruising lifestyle.

I appreciate there is a lot of grey in many areas of discussion. But there are also clear falsehoods that are often repeated by a very few here. We have the experts and expertise to identify them. We don't have to succumb to the game of bothsidism. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts, and these facts are available.
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Old 02-12-2021, 08:44   #13
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

I think one of the rules JanetH stated at the top is a bit of a catch 22.

"Please be especially cautious about posting politically charged content"

Like it or not, discussions and debates about Covid-19 topics are political. Since many of the debates are about public policy, how could they be otherwise?

I have to believe that was the very reason that this containment zone was created here on CF; to isolate these discussions from other forums to keep from them 'contaminating' those subjects with political discussions about Covid-19.

Noting the lack posts relating to Covid-19 in the other forums, I think this containment zone has worked remarkably well. I think the fact that many regular posters are absent from the Covid-19 containment area, yet still posting frequently about other topics is a testament to this. Those posters are exercising their right to not engage in this topic, while continuing to post on CF on other topics with minimal, mostly tangential, discussion about Covid-19.

Some opinions are indeed on the 'fringe' and some seem to be from another galaxy. I think that's okay. What I think is not okay are ad hominems and attacks on the individual for stating an opinion or observation.

I think we should be wary of limiting content and defining the 'official truth.' I certainly do not think the CF moderators are 'curators of truth' as said above (I doubt any of the moderators would agree with that statement) but rather more like a school playground supervisor that does their best to keep the kids playing together nicely. I believe this is true whether the discussion is about anchors, monohulls vs multihulls, or or any other subject, including Covid-19.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
My vote is always to only eliminate uncivil debate as a way to force us to stay as far from the temptation to make it personal as possible.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
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Old 02-12-2021, 08:54   #14
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I appreciate your thought on this Paul, and I can see the wisdom. However, I disagree that Covid-19 discussion doesn't belong here. For some of us, this issue has been THE most important factor in our cruising lifestyle.

I appreciate there is a lot of grey in many areas of discussion. But there are also clear falsehoods that are often repeated by a very few here. We have the experts and expertise to identify them. We don't have to succumb to the game of bothsidism. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts, and these facts are available.
Mike
And like you it has been the biggest issue in my cruising, being stuck in Malaysia for a year, etc. The case statistics of the countries of the world as endlessly debated here has absolutely nothing directly with cruising. The derivation of the original Covid or the next one has nothing to do with cruising. You can't even find the discussions in CF on what countries are open to cruisers and how their requirements are changing as it is all hidden in either nut job falsehoods or intellectual look at me I researched everything on the Interweb and will tell you definitively what all the experts think.

It is really not reasonable to ask the CF mods to make decisions on each quack post and it is also unfair in my opinion to allow the completely cruising unrelated covid posts with bullying statements and opinions that are couched in intellectualism stand either. Just get rid of the Covid stuff on CF that is not directly related to cruising. Far more practical to monitor.

This doesn't stop a discussion on can I get my boat out of the Maritimes or into British Columbia. It would stop follow on 200 posts in the people are dying in BC but it really isn't bad because I have graphs and papers to link to to show you that Mississippi is so much worse.
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Old 02-12-2021, 09:00   #15
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Re: New forum for Covid-19 Topics - README

Quote:
Originally Posted by danstanford View Post
I spend a good part of my day challenging truths both from internal operational experience, and from a client perspective when they bring in preconceptions from 'experts' on the net. Much of both sources contain truth but for sure the internet sources are clearly trying to fill a page and create easy answers. This serves a useful function for most of us as we can then identify a position and then work to prove or disprove it through further research.

For the reason above, I may be one who gravitates more quickly than others to the 'untruths' as a place to work from and to ask questions of. Most of the time this process asks me to use anecdotes (unproven in a statistical sense) from my own life which I clearly know to have happened but may not understand all the reasons for. This could be a sail trim question or the observation that 4 friends had heart attacks last spring after taking the vaccine where I couldn't remember the last heart attack from my group of friends.
While I certainly understand the desire of many to prevent any information that might distract/prevent people from getting vaccinated, I prefer to hear the point and the counterpoints so I can from my own view. This view has often morphed from the beginning of this pandemic on many elements of it as I assemble new facts emerging with much aggravation that more facts are hard to find and far harder to verify.

My vote is always to only eliminate uncivil debate as a way to force us to stay as far from the temptation to make it personal as possible.
I would argue that asking if COVID vaccines increased the risk of heart attacks because you witnessed 4 friends have heart attacks this year is a far cry from stating that one shouldn't get COVID vaccines because they cause heart attacks based on the fact that you have 4 friends who had heart attacks this year.

To the first I might point out that you probably also probably can't remember the last time you and your group of friends was as old as they are this year and increased age has the highest correlation to increases in heart attacks, and maybe we could discuss the small myocarditis risk of vaccines vs the risks of COVID itself. To the second, no rational conversation would be possible. You're the kind of person who engages in the first type of conversation, a couple people here are only capable of the second type. At some point, we all have to acknowledge that there are counterpoints and there are just outright falsehoods and failure to grasp basic tenants of logic. I don't think it is unreasonable for a community to say they reject the latter while embracing the former. It adds no value to anyone to hear the flat earth "counterpoint" to the theory that the earth is round, for example.
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