Mah mah mah mah myyy carona (my experience with it and some thoughts)

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Creedence

That's an interesting point. I have to wonder if those countries have successfully addressed the issue, or have simply delayed the inevitability of this thing running its course. (I do not have that answer). It would seem if an effective vaccine could be developed, that remained effective, prior to their need to open their borders for normal trade and commerce, they'd be theoretically freed of it.

But short of that, to remain free of the virus, they'd need to keep their borders closed in perpetuity.

China was housing all arrivals in quarantine hotels for two weeks just like the old days. That is obviously not feasible everywhere. Now it's a mandatory negative test result. While I agree a mandatory vaccine is too much, a mandatory test is not.

Eventually this will probably become seasonal and you roll the dice with the vaccine. Let's see what the science tell us when the political storm dies down.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

In 6 months the annual death statistics will be out. When overlaid over previous years it remains to be seen if there has in fact been an overall increase in the number of deaths. Data from Europe already suggests this is not the case.

Since in prior years with higher death tolls there were no border closures, business lockdowns etc, it suggests that this is just another example of government power expansion and deliberate destruction of targeted industries in the lead up to what must be the most contentious election year in recent history.


Anyone who would be foolish enough to participate in the initial rounds of vaccination given the highly politicised situation is in my opinion exposing themselves to great harm all for the promise of safety. As we well know, promises of safety are for the most part covering the systematic erosion of individual rights that make us less safe than we have ever been before. The gun rights argument being the best example since the places where guns are absolutely banned are the most likely for large numbers of people to be executed by maniacs looking for their minute of fame.

UK has just reported 7 weeks in a row of lower overall deaths than previous years. Showing that in a country with relatively high deaths from covid its still a drop in the ocean.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Data source? I know a few spanish and italian friends who would probably not agree with that.

Italy 2016/17 24981 Deaths from the Flu
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01971219303285



Italy Covid Deaths to date 35215


So not massively more and also taking into account the current Covid deaths and how many were actually the normal Flu, as not everyone who died were tested!

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by UFO

Italy 2016/17 24981 Deaths from the Flu
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01971219303285



Italy Covid Deaths to date 35215


So not massively more and also taking into account the current Covid deaths and how many were actually the normal Flu, as not everyone who died were tested!

I guess the only way to find out is to re-infect the population and this time let it roll instead of wearing masks and shutting things down. Any volunteers?

Although the states are doing a pretty good job of showing what can happen if things are not managed as well as they were in most of europe.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I guess the only way to find out is to re-infect the population and this time let it roll instead of wearing masks and shutting things down. Any volunteers?

Count me in



As I have said all along I would rather take my chances with the Virus (and I am in a relatively at risk category) than create a multi-generational crippling debt for my children and grand children, but hey horses for courses.


Oh and the other thing everyone seems to conveniently forget is the deaths caused by the lock downs and financial melt down - Suicides, Drug Over doses, Murder etc and not to mention death from starvation in many developing countries. All of which will far out-weigh the deaths from Covid (UN World Food Program).

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by UFO

Count me in



As I have said all along I would rather take my chances with the Virus (and I am in a relatively at risk category) than create a multi-generational crippling debt for my children and grand children, but hey horses for courses.


Oh and the other thing everyone seems to conveniently forget is the deaths caused by the lock downs and financial melt down - Suicides, Drug Over doses, Murder etc and not to mention death from starvation in many developing countries. All of which will far out-weigh the deaths from Covid (UN World Food Program).

Well, It's a shame that it has gotten to this.

But as I have said. You don't need to lock down, but you do need to be considerate and at least try to mitigate this by wearing a mask and practice good public health practices. Business as usual is not going to work.

No body wants america to collapse. Any sane person would realize the world is so interdependent now, any one country's collapse is not going to do anyone any good.

Side note. Looks like Joe picked Kamala Harris...............oh geez. I feel like watching american news is like watching HBO these days.........Is the 'VEEP' still on air.

[Creedence]

It’s weird to say this, but given what I’ve come to learn which I outlined in the OP, I’d be as willing to be exposed to this as I am the cold or flu viruses. I don’t want it, but I no longer fear its impacts to my personal health. The key being that I do not seem to carry (the as-yet, unknown) trait that causes the damaging excessive immunireponse which is what the medical community is beginning to understand to be the issue in the severe cases.

Speaking only for myself, the pandemic is over. We spent months strictly adhering to our lockdown- we even got all of our groceries delivered, etc. Because of the comorbitites I assumed I had given my injuries in January, we took a very conservative approach to avoid it, but we came down with it anyway. Again, given that the CDC has yet to identify a case of a more severe reinfection, I’m not yet seeing any data to change my understanding of it to suggest I need to take extreme measures to avoid re-exposure.

This particular post is not a statement about masks, though we’re all well aware of the two schools of thought about them. Beyond them being uncomfortable, I have no opinion on them. They’re required in certain places, so the responsible person (or more accurately qualified: the person who values adhering to rules or in some cases legislation) wears them in those places.

If I do get exposed to it again despite me taking the normal precautions (hand washing, hands away from the face, etc), I’ll be sure to discuss it in this thread. At the very least, it would make for an interesting case study, and probably encourage some very interesting discussion which is why I shared my experience here to begin with.

[Pete17C]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

In 6 months the annual death statistics will be out. When overlaid over previous years it remains to be seen if there has in fact been an overall increase in the number of deaths. Data from Europe already suggests this is not the case.

Since in prior years with higher death tolls there were no border closures, business lockdowns etc, it suggests that this is just another example of government power expansion and deliberate destruction of targeted industries in the lead up to what must be the most contentious election year in recent history.


Anyone who would be foolish enough to participate in the initial rounds of vaccination given the highly politicised situation is in my opinion exposing themselves to great harm all for the promise of safety. As we well know, promises of safety are for the most part covering the systematic erosion of individual rights that make us less safe than we have ever been before. The gun rights argument being the best example since the places where guns are absolutely banned are the most likely for large numbers of people to be executed by maniacs looking for their minute of fame.

There's this thing they're calling "Excess Deaths". It's a comparison of previous years death rate and the death rate since covid-19 emerged. Many deaths are being attributed to underlying causes that would not have killed the person had they not had covid-19 to exacerbate their condition.

From JAMA:

"Between March 1, 2020, and April 25, 2020, a total of 505 059 deaths were reported in the US; 87 001 (95% CI, 86 578-87 423) were excess deaths, of which 56 246 (65%) were attributed to COVID-19. In 14 states, more than 50% of excess deaths were attributed to underlying causes other than COVID-19; these included California (55% of excess deaths) and Texas (64% of excess deaths) (Table). The 5 states with the most COVID-19 deaths experienced large proportional increases in deaths due to nonrespiratory underlying causes, including diabetes (96%), heart diseases (89%), Alzheimer disease (64%), and cerebrovascular diseases (35%) (Figure). New York City experienced the largest increases in nonrespiratory deaths, notably those due to heart disease (398%) and diabetes (356%)."

Please check your facts, people are dying! And your actions can either add to or lessen the spread of covid-19.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2768086

[Westcliffe01]

When the median age of the victims is around 70 (which is typical) all that has happened is that their death was hastened by several months over what it would have been with natural causes. And the lockdown had virtually no benefit for people in nursing homes in the first place. In fact, by restricting visitation by family members and forced isolation for months, many believe that a higher death toll was inevitable.

[witzgall]

Deaths are only part of the equation. My wife has been following a facebook group of Covid-19 survivors. There are many many people with life altering symptoms post-infection. These include breathing issues, stamina, kidney function, etc. Of course nobody knows if these will resolve over time, but so far it has been long term for many, worldwide.

Chris

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

In 6 months the annual death statistics will be out. When overlaid over previous years it remains to be seen if there has in fact been an overall increase in the number of deaths. Data from Europe already suggests this is not the case.

Since in prior years with higher death tolls there were no border closures, business lockdowns etc, it suggests that this is just another example of government power expansion and deliberate destruction of targeted industries in the lead up to what must be the most contentious election year in recent history.


Anyone who would be foolish enough to participate in the initial rounds of vaccination given the highly politicised situation is in my opinion exposing themselves to great harm all for the promise of safety. As we well know, promises of safety are for the most part covering the systematic erosion of individual rights that make us less safe than we have ever been before. The gun rights argument being the best example since the places where guns are absolutely banned are the most likely for large numbers of people to be executed by maniacs looking for their minute of fame.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by witzgall

Deaths are only part of the equation. My wife has been following a facebook group of Covid-19 survivors. There are many many people with life altering symptoms post-infection. These include breathing issues, stamina, kidney function, etc. Of course nobody knows if these will resolve over time, but so far it has been long term for many, worldwide.

Chris

I wonder if all those symptoms will also disappear once the virus actually disappears magically in a few months? /s

[Westcliffe01]

Given that medical malpractice is one of the largest causes of death in the US, I'm pretty sure that all covid 19 related cases are just a drop in the bucket compared to injuries sustained from your physicians and care givers errors... It is believed that approximately 400k people per year die from medical malpractice in the USA annually. My wife has permanent problems with her digestive system after the local hospital tried to kill her with an antibiotic concoction, the only reason she is alive is because she stopped taking it..

Originally Posted by witzgall

Deaths are only part of the equation. My wife has been following a facebook group of Covid-19 survivors. There are many many people with life altering symptoms post-infection. These include breathing issues, stamina, kidney function, etc. Of course nobody knows if these will resolve over time, but so far it has been long term for many, worldwide.

Chris

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Creedence

... I have to wonder if those countries have successfully addressed the issue, or have simply delayed the inevitability of this thing running its course. (I do not have that answer). It would seem if an effective vaccine could be developed, that remained effective, prior to their need to open their borders for normal trade and commerce, they'd be theoretically freed of it.

But short of that, to remain free of the virus, they'd need to keep their borders closed in perpetuity.

Border closings, lockdowns etc are not long-term strategies. They were initially deployed (hastily, incorrectly or not) to slow or stop the spread of COVID-19. All they were intended to do was to buy time - to keep our health services from being overwhelmed, for research, for the development of better treatments, and of course for vaccines.

And this is pretty much what's happening, yes?

I think you'll find that where COVID-19 has been allowed to "run its course" - eg in poorer countries - the human toll is significant.

Anyway, no - border closure and lockdowns were never envisioned as long-term solutions.

[Yihang]

Vietnam is a good example of an developing country teaching the rest of the world how it can be done. First death recorded two weeks ago. Who knew, no body knows.

Seawind which is based in vietnam has been open for awhile now.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/asia/...hnk/index.html

[Westcliffe01]

In India the death toll is reportedly minimal. Some of the poorest people in the worst general health out there. But not as many geriatric people since the average life expectancy is lower. Maybe thats the big difference, the people most affected having been propped up by "modern medicine" to get to where they are.