Define murder.

[Manateeman]

A man enters the ER with a child in immediate need of a ventilator. All the ventilators are taken by anti vaccination patients now dying of COVID. The man asks the Doctor who will die soon and he kills that person before anyone can stop him and puts his child on that bed. Sounds crazy? Not in these times.
This might occur before the end of this pandemic.
Will the unvaccinated be prevented from entering hospitals if dying from COVID. As the system collapses, will it become No vaccine, No ventilator?
Not many forum members have seen a loved one on a ventilator long term. I have. It’s terrifying. A cough sets off alarms and clearing the breathing tube is a race to save lung and brain tissue. The stress on critical care Doctors and Nurses has never been greater since polio.
The system cannot continue to support this number of cases. I’m against forced vaccination. But, No vaccine, No ventilator. Not much point in thinking you can have it both ways... simply not enough machines and Doctors.
Mark

[Tellie]

Moral equivalency. My guess this one won't last long either.

[embibb]

Frankly, this post is inappropriate for a Sailing oriented forum. Thank you

[JC Reefer]

Smells like murder. And unfortunate timing for the child.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

A man enters the ER with a child in immediate need of a ventilator. All the ventilators are taken by anti vaccination patients now dying of COVID. The man asks the Doctor who will die soon and he kills that person before anyone can stop him and puts his child on that bed.
This will probably occur before the end of this pandemic.

A hypothetical that won't come to pass; they're much more sophisticated in the ventilation therapy for COVID, and there's more ventilators.

But... let's have a pool for how many posts before shutdown... 37. And Godwinning is cheating.

[C420sailor]

Ventilators were the gold standard early in the pandemic. They realized that early ventilator use was a shortcut to poor outcomes.

I don’t think we are going to see nearly as many on vents. And, if they are, it won’t be for long. The majority quickly move to ECMO and die soon thereafter.

[Hydro]

Sure ill bite lol

If you "trip" over the ventilator power/air is it still murder? Manslaughter?

How do you put a value on life? What makes one persons life more valuable or less then another? Age? Wealth? Status?

12 posts my guess...

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by embibb

Frankly, this post is inappropriate for a Sailing oriented forum. Thank you

When posted in the right place here it is fine.


Sailors are allowed to talk about... well stuff other than sailing.

[bensolomon]

What we have done is close to elective procedures and flexed other wards in the hospital to accommodate critically ill patients, including the operating rooms. We have honest discussions with patients and families about realistic outcomes based on objective physiologic parameters including severity of illness, age and concurrent illnesses. When the data doesn't support intubation and ventilation because death is the most likely outcome, we counsel the patient and families against mech ventilation, but continue to support the patient. It still remains their choice to press on or move to palliative care and hospice.

Resources are not unlimited and we have run out of some medicine used to treat covid patients. At this point, mech ventilation is a first come, first served type situation. Currently we have mech ventilators at the ready, have upgraded our NIPPV machines to be used as invasive ventilators if needed to meet the community needs.

All of this is exhausting. The concept of the OP is real. We have had to adjust care based on resources. However, we will never euthanize one patient for another. The ethics of medicine are clear on that, at least for this critical care physician.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

A man enters the ER with a child in immediate need of a ventilator. All the ventilators are taken by anti vaccination patients now dying of COVID. The man asks the Doctor who will die soon and he kills that person before anyone can stop him and puts his child on that bed. Sounds crazy? Not in these times.
This might occur before the end of this pandemic.
Will the unvaccinated be prevented from entering hospitals if dying from COVID. As the system collapses, will it become No vaccine, No ventilator?
Not many forum members have seen a loved one on a ventilator long term. I have. It’s terrifying. A cough sets off alarms and clearing the breathing tube is a race to save lung and brain tissue. The stress on critical care Doctors and Nurses has never been greater since polio.
The system cannot continue to support this number of cases. I’m against forced vaccination. But, No vaccine, No ventilator. Not much point in thinking you can have it both ways... simply not enough machines and Doctors.
Mark

Perhaps a good hobby...like sailing might take you away from this dark negative thoughts.

[JBP]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A hypothetical that won't come to pass; they're much more sophisticated in the ventilation therapy for COVID, and there's more ventilators.

But... let's have a pool for how many posts before shutdown... 37. And Godwinning is cheating.

It's already happening.

https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/n...d-782b2fb3824a

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ryones-health/

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/healt...day/index.html

My guess is 200+

[Tellie]

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3,

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

A man enters the ER with a child in immediate need of a ventilator. All the ventilators are taken by anti vaccination patients now dying of COVID. The man asks the Doctor who will die soon and he kills that person before anyone can stop him and puts his child on that bed. Sounds crazy? Not in these times.
This might occur before the end of this pandemic…..

What if the beds were taken up with a crew “recklessly embarking on a voyage” putting their rescuers at risk and needing intensive care when rescued?

Triage is based purely on status and prognosis. Why should it be different now?

Anyway, healthy children are at negligible risk of serious illness if being infected with SARS-CoV-2. Almost all are either asymptomatic or minimally affected, even with the latest variants. There are only rare exceptions.

The opening post is simply using emotional laden tactics to coerce vaccination. If anything this tactic induces the opposite reaction.

The biggest reason to be vaccinated is to protect oneself if at high risk, or others near or dear to you who cannot do so and are shielding for medical reasons. Threads such as this are simply counter productive in my view.

SWL

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

The concept of the OP is real. We have had to adjust care based on resources. However, we will never euthanize one patient for another. The ethics of medicine are clear on that, at least for this critical care physician.

Originally Posted by JBP

It's already happening.

https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/n...d-782b2fb3824a

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ryones-health/

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/healt...day/index.html

Holy sh!t.

I apologize for my initial flip response; I genuinely thought that at this point, the US was not in serious danger of overloading their hospitals like in the first waves. Wow.

[Hydro]

Originally Posted by JBP

It's already happening.

https://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/n...d-782b2fb3824a

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ryones-health/

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/healt...day/index.html

My guess is 200+

Already lost..... here goes

Where do you/they draw the line?
hypothetically speaking.

If i choose not to wear a seatbelt for instance, and am involved in a serious crash, would they refuse treatment because i didn't wear a seatbelt to accommodate some else? If i consumes a poison somehow, am i lower in the queue?

Any decisions if any made are a very slippery slope to the unknown.
Lawyers start your engines 5,4, 3......