Covid vaccines: risk vs benefit alarming news

[Albinvega27]

I am a sailor who does cruising. My home is the boat and since 1 year I am having troubles. So, during December I reviewed my home country and since I had canceer, brainstroke, 2 heart attacks, am high blood pressure and some other diseases, illnesses or how you wanna call it in today days, I looked for vaccine and in Jan/Feb got the shots from Pfizer/Biontech. Since I used to work for Pfizer, this company is ok for me and since I used to work all over the world, I have received shots against Malaria, Yellow Fever, Dengue and some other tropical diseases. So, since in the last 40 years never gave a damn about what I will get shot, I had no suspician against Corona vaccine and done, have no problem.
But in the latest years and for fun, I have made a degree in Behavioral Psychology and since, I read professional stuff, observe the people and research while cruising on Neuro science.
To start with is to say, y´all have to much time! Napoleon solved this sending the people to build roads. Secondly, y´all read to much and y´all have as much clue as I do to distinguish between a good and a false source. However! None of you is willing to think about his own sins, so let´s talk about Corona. At least we get recognition from the others, since we (not important people) at least become important. As Youssou n´Dor sings in his wonderful song 7 seconds, just this one is no love song, but 7 seconds of hilarious atention we get from this insiginificant world. because if we were Biden or some of those hotshots, we probably would should up our mouth and just try to point on the right decision. Whichever this is, because none of us, whether you and me, nor Biden, have the experience to decide intelligent. The only thing is, Biden probably has a bigger intelligent staff, than we have intelligent Internet information, to decide from.

So, since I am vaccined and still alive and happy to go sailing, my sh.t today is sailing. Have a good One all of you. You decide for you, what´s important. The sailboat or the vaccine...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Ah. Our ancestors did some stupid stuff so it's ok for us to expect no better.

We'll you lot voted for Trudeau...

[SV_FlyingTigress]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Most of the stories in responsible publications did bring lethality up. I expect that hospitalization data will in time demonstrate the change in lethality, if that's happened. Of course, treatments have improved as well.
Until there's a vaccination uptake of north of 70%, mask use, social distancing and some restrictions on gatherings will all remain useful strategies. Surely you can see that, right now, allowing any self-declared post-COVID or vaccinated person to do what they like would lead to the breakdown of whatever discipline and self-control people have left, and would probably slow down the rate of vaccination.

Nobody is talking self declared anything. I said "*proven*" in my comments.

If physician providers who are *documented* to be post-covid and also immunized (as I said in my wife's case MULTIPLE Covid vaccines) are being still asked to wear masks even in closed/controlled situations with other immunized and post-covid providers... and the rational is a nice succinct "for safety" (i.e. because we say so) ... it is an inescapable conclusion that science & biology are not a primary consideration to applying policy, nor is the opinion of the healthcare workers who are in all other scenarios deemed trained and trusted on when the gloves, glasses and masks need to go on an off. I illustrate this situation because when it comes biologically and appropriate to roll back closures, masks and social distancing (which have large and negative social costs), then it becomes the population's (i.e. individual adults) responsibility to push back to force the politicians and institutional types to relinquish inappropriate population behavioral control. It has been my observations is that pushback is all they understand because it is another vector effecting their self-interest.

If you think about it, the bureaucrats now have no politically acceptable way to back off social distancing policy - even when it is clear that it serves no net-good public health purpose whatsoever. Think about it, *outside of public pressure*, which organizational leaders, politicians, lawyers and bureaucrats are going to be the one to stand up and say, "I think we should stop wearing masks and stop social distancing in new situations X , Y , Z" ...that line of thinking violates their CYA reflex. So when public policy becomes contrary to the overall public good, then it is the public's responsibility to push back. For this reason, I think that high-resolution levels of compulsory population control is *never* wisely entrusted to a government...that level of consolidated power attracts too many bad actors and history suggests that it tends to be used against populace rather than for their good.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Why should my freedom of choice be limited due to others decisions.. Its like me mandating no one can buy Mac's, Taco's etc unless they are within their BMI ideals.

Their decisions.. Their consequences

Because your choice affects the chances of other, more vulnerable people getting sick and by choosing to be part of a group of unvaccinated people amongst whom the virus can continue to circulate and mutate, your “choice” may have a large effect on many others, even if they were vaccinated against current versions of the virus. On the other hand, eat all the Big Macs or tacos you want because your BMI will never have any ill effects other than possibly financial ones on anyone but yourself. Can you really not see the clear difference between a choice that affects only yourself and a choice that could be deadly to many others?

I’m all for individual freedoms too, but when a “choice” you are making is likely to negatively impact many others, the rights of the “many others” have to be considered. I happen to own a Porsche Cayman and the faster you go the more it feels like you’re on rails, up to well over 100 mph and supposedly up to 160mph. But, though I’m confident it’s safe for me in that particular car in light traffic, and I’d really like to, I don’t drive it nearly that fast because our society has decided I don’t have that choice because it might impact the safety of others with whom I share the road. Whether you want to admit it or not, you and I and all of us are all intertwined as part of a much larger group sharing the road of life so our rights to do some things that are likely to endanger others in that group are not unlimited. Right now it’s not a big issue because we are still in the fairly early stages of the vaccine being offered to everyone, but once it has been offered to everyone and the vast majority of folks have been vaccinated and decide they’re really sick of putting up with people who may still have the full blown virus circulating among them and don’t want to be in the presence of someone who might have a covid variant that could defeat the vaccine they took and start this whole pandemic year nightmare all over again, don’t be surprised if this large majority of people decide to exercise their choice to require a vaccination in order to enter a grocery store or restaurant or pub or any public building or transportation. Then we’ll see just how strongly you feel about exercising your freedom to not get vaccinated. I agree it’s ridiculous snd a real shame we may come to that, but when some within a group insist on making a choice that may endanger the majority of that group, the majority have the right to curtail their exposure to the minority in order to protect themselves, even if it means that the minority has to lose some of their freedoms.

[Paul L]

A large scale study in Denmark showed that the protection from reinfection after having Covid is about 80%. If over 65 then closer to 50%. 80 % is pretty high, just not as high as the current vaccines.
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/947666

It is a pretty silly argument to say I have a strong immune system so I'm protected from Covid. No one knows how an individuals immune system will react. A main route to death with Covid is a cytokine storm - you know, where the immune system overreacts.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Stephen_MO

Nobody is talking self declared anything. I said "*proven*" in my comments.

If physician providers who are *documented* to be post-covid and also immunized (as I said in my wife's case MULTIPLE Covid vaccines) are being still asked to wear masks even in closed/controlled situations with other immunized and post-covid providers... and the rational is a nice succinct "for safety" (i.e. because we say so) ... it is an inescapable conclusion that science & biology are not a primary consideration to applying policy, nor is the opinion of the healthcare workers who are in all other scenarios deemed trained and trusted on when the gloves, glasses and masks need to go on an off.

You're sort of advocating for vaccine/immunity certificates, which (outside of travel) are of dubious value to normal living. Does it make sense to get into all that now, when the required "herd immunity" is maybe 6 months away in most Western countries, if vaccination rates stay high?

I see your point, but anything that makes for more complex rules and the appearance of loopholes won't help the overall efforts to minimize contagion til the spread and harm are mostly damped down by vaccination. Are you wanting authorities to be 'carding' everyone who is in public without a mask? Do you think that will go well, and bolster compliance among the not yet vaccinated?

It has been my observations is that pushback is all they understand because it is another vector effecting their self-interest.

And what is that self-interest in maintaining COVID restrictions, exactly? My impression is that most governments would rather be thinking about 1000 other things instead of COVID restrictions and mitigation.

If you think about it, the bureaucrats now have no politically acceptable way to back off social distancing policy - even when it is clear that it serves no net-good public health purpose whatsoever.

...really? I'm seeing cities here relax restrictions as falling COVID admission rates confirm a reduction in infection rate (and, as in Europe, re-imposing them if rates shoot back up). I foresee no issues with the relaxation of restrictions when it's justified... except maybe releasing too much/too soon and a resulting surge. I expect that, given continued high vaccination uptake, things will be considerably more open by summer. And possibly close to a pre-pandemic normal before Christmas.

Think about it, *outside of public pressure*, which organizational leaders, politicians, lawyers and bureaucrats are going to be the one to stand up and say, "I think we should stop wearing masks and stop social distancing in new situations X , Y , Z" ...that line of thinking violates their CYA reflex. So when public policy becomes contrary to the overall public good, then it is the public's responsibility to push back. For this reason, I think that high-resolution levels of compulsory population control is *never* wisely entrusted to a government...that level of consolidated power attracts too many bad actors and history suggests that it tends to be used against populace rather than for their good.

Again, not seeing it. Governments would love to be rid of COVID and all its hassles. A recent election underscores that fact that the public wants responsible leadership and guidance through this crisis, and will punish those who don't deliver.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Because your choice affects the chances of other, more vulnerable people getting sick and by choosing to be part of a group of unvaccinated people amongst whom the virus can continue to circulate and mutate, your “choice” may have a large effect on many others, even if they were vaccinated against current versions of the virus. On the other hand, eat all the Big Macs or tacos you want because your BMI will never have any ill effects other than possibly financial ones on anyone but yourself. Can you really not see the clear difference between a choice that affects only yourself and a choice that could be deadly to many others?

I’m all for individual freedoms too, but when a “choice” you are making is likely to negatively impact many others, the rights of the “many others” have to be considered. I happen to own a Porsche Cayman and the faster you go the more it feels like you’re on rails, up to well over 100 mph and supposedly up to 160mph. But, though I’m confident it’s safe for me in that particular car in light traffic, and I’d really like to, I don’t drive it nearly that fast because our society has decided I don’t have that choice because it might impact the safety of others with whom I share the road. Whether you want to admit it or not, you and I and all of us are all intertwined as part of a much larger group sharing the road of life so our rights to do some things that are likely to endanger others in that group are not unlimited. Right now it’s not a big issue because we are still in the fairly early stages of the vaccine being offered to everyone, but once it has been offered to everyone and the vast majority of folks have been vaccinated and decide they’re really sick of putting up with people who may still have the full blown virus circulating among them and don’t want to be in the presence of someone who might have a covid variant that could defeat the vaccine they took and start this whole pandemic year nightmare all over again, don’t be surprised if this large majority of people decide to exercise their choice to require a vaccination in order to enter a grocery store or restaurant or pub or any public building or transportation. Then we’ll see just how strongly you feel about exercising your freedom to not get vaccinated. I agree it’s ridiculous snd a real shame we may come to that, but when some within a group insist on making a choice that may endanger the majority of that group, the majority have the right to curtail their exposure to the minority in order to protect themselves, even if it means that the minority has to lose some of their freedoms.

You totally missed my point re Mac's etc.. its their excessive consumption that has created the over 40% obesity levels in the US and 62% overweight in the UK.. it is the resulting co-morbidities that are the cause of the high death rates that Covid brings..
So as far as your concerned healthy people should be penalized and forced to comply just so you and others can maintain your unhealthy lifestyle.. the American way, don't improve your lifestyle, just take some drugs.
As for being excluded by society.. I am well used to being treated like a pariah because I enjoy tobacco.. because of sphincters snapping over ridiculous fears from secondhand smoke..
But hey.. Just another threat..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

As is the UK. 66m people, 25m vaccinated resulting in Covid stats dropping faster than my Rocna on freefall.

A recent survey also stated that 91% of the population believe in the vaccination which is encouraging.

Pete

What Pete said. Look at this:





Israel, UK and the US, who are much further along with vaccination than the rest of the world, shows the world what the pandemic looks like when it is ending.


UK particularly remarkable performance -- from one of the worst infection rates to the lowest in Europe (even less than Finland and Norway)!


That's what you get when you get a significant percent of the population vaccinated.

[GordMay]

So-called “experts” also say smoking will give you various diseases …
But, how can they say that, when we know it cures salmon?

[davil]

Howdy
like your post as well as my respect for your sharing not only your life experience and your PEARLS!!!!
Taking the liberty of breaking this post on smaller sections since I feel each one stands on its own but thrown together tend to distract the short attention span crowd


=================================

Originally Posted by Albinvega27

I looked for vaccine and in Jan/Feb got the shots from Pfizer/Biontech. Since I used to work for Pfizer, this company is ok for me and since I used to work all over the world, I have received shots against Malaria, Yellow Fever, Dengue and some other tropical diseases.



So, since in the last 40 years never gave a damn about what I will get shot, I had no suspician against Corona vaccine and done, have no problem.


To start with is to say, y´all have to much time! Napoleon solved this sending the people to build roads. Secondly, y´all read to much and y´all have as much clue as I do to distinguish between a good and a false source.

Like we old timers used to say RIGHT ON!


. Whichever this is, because none of us, whether you and me, nor Biden, have the experience to decide intelligent. The only thing is, Biden probably has a bigger intelligent staff, than we have intelligent Internet information, to decide from.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


So, since I am vaccined and still alive and happy to go sailing, my stuff today is sailing. Have a good One all of you. You decide for you, what´s important. The sailboat or the vaccine...

Makes two of us,and really do not give a rat about the rest,got my vaccine,my double mask and just keep distance from "them"Cheers,will love to meet you during our travels

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Why hasn't this thread been deleted? It has nothing to do with cruising.

If CruisersForum feels it must provide a platform for looney conspiracy theories - let it at least be about anchors.

That is a good question. The hope is that it remains at least civil even if a little off topic. Clearly there are opposing views and personally I am shocked by the views of the other side. However, debating in a civil manner isn't against the CF rules and since it has affected every single one of us, can stay for the moment, but I can't guarantee its future.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

"being masked like a slave" - LOL

I choose to wear a mask for the good of others (and myself).

That's their major problem though. For certain people, doing anything, even if it has zero negative effect on you, or as minor as fabric on your face at the grocery store, to benefit someone else is against their fundamental world view. They only understand things as transactional or selfish acts. Being asked to do something for another person, with no gain to yourself, is anathema to them, and as stated; equal to slavery.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pete7

That is a good question. The hope is that it remains at least civil even if a little off topic. Clearly there are opposing views and personally I am shocked by the views of the other side. However, debating in a civil manner isn't against the CF rules and since it has affected every single one of us, can stay for the moment, but I can't guarantee its future.

Why.???
This is no different from all the Americans Dutch side who say Phillipsburg and Marigot are 'No go areas' after dark.
I have a great time in those places.. fear of harm or even death..
Lives ruled by fears..

[boatman61]

Scientific modeling in UK shows vaccines will not stop Covid 19 reproduction.. even rates of 80% will not succeed in getting the R rate below 1 without restrictions continuing.
Suggestions of average 20,000 Covid Deaths/yr.
Go figure..

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Scientific modeling in UK shows vaccines will not stop Covid 19 reproduction.. even rates of 80% will not succeed in getting the R rate below 1 without restrictions continuing.
Suggestions of average 20,000 Covid Deaths/yr.

Well, 20k COVID deaths/yr isn't 125,926 deaths (current UK count after about a year). If the virus is mutating to a more contagious but less harmful form, and vaccines reduce severity and contagiousness, and treatments continue to improve, we could see COVID settle back to just another flu. That's closer to manageable.