Covid vaccination status for CF members

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

In this case, the biggest “payoff” for not smoking is a much greater likelihood of living a longer and healthier life without respiratory problems, and pretty much everyone in N America is already aware of that so there’s much less smoking going on here than there used to be. But there’s always the 10% that never get the word and are still trying to be the Marlboro man. Plus, I’ve noticed that most smokers seem to have no idea that they literally stink and non smokers can usually smell them coming from quite a long distance away so when they quit that’s a “payoff” we can all enjoy. Ive never understood why people do that to themselves but as long as I can keep them to leeward and they don’t expect me to help pay for their much more expensive final years of healthcare from a condition they knowingly inflicted on thrmself, to each their own.

However those who have lifestyle diseases, such as obesity and smoking, they do expect you to pay for their additional cost of medical care. Insurance is a pooling of expenses, so those who have higher claims impact everyone. It's pretty easy for The medical costs are just a few people in a company of let's say a hundred lives, to exceed the premium paid for the entire group. Same with people who unnecessarily get covid, then medical expenses from their personal choices cost everyone.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The only thing I'm trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation.

Getting vaccinated is definitely a personal choice, but the consequences of this choice are not confined to the individual. If you don't want to get vaccinated, then fine. But don't hide behind made up justification.




Thanks Dan. I appreciate your thoughtful approach to the subject. And I completely agree with you on being torn about the public health measures, especially the removal of so many of our freedoms. I've been concerned about the arbitrary and rapid nature of these moves from the get-go. I fear these are the long-term lessons those in power will take away from this pandemic (i.e. how easy it is to take more of our freedoms away).

The sad reality is that if people behaved responsibly, and simply wore a mask and kept the physical distant requirements, then this would remove the justification for many of the draconian government measures. But just as with drunk driving, there are some who never understand that with rights come responsibilities. So we all suffer...

Mike, the other element that I think is going to come home to roost for us, and more likely for our kids is the fiscal mess this will leave as a legacy. Once the fear is gone our kids will want to know why the hell they have to pay so much of their wealth and income to support the interest on the debt we are incurring every day trying to keep everyone whole. It will be vary hard to justify the money we have spent as a result of locking down and trying to pay people to stay home. The awful spectre of people dying in hospital parking lots will be long gone and the legitimate explanation of reacting with the best recommendations will not hold water.
As I have often said, the public policy work has had some significant holes in it but I am sure glad I didn't have to write it.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The only thing I'm trying to do is stop the spread of misinformation.

Getting vaccinated is definitely a personal choice, but the consequences of this choice are not confined to the individual. If you don't want to get vaccinated, then fine. But don't hide behind made up justification.

This is what gets me about folks like you.. you just cannot resist putting your spin on whatever I have said..
I have never said people should not get vaccinated if they choose to.. I am pro choice, unlike you it seems.
I just do not accept your claim that an unvaccinated person is a threat to vaccinated people.. else why bother vaccinating.. and the implication that those who cannot be vaccinated for health or religious reasons should be ostracized or sent to Alcatraz or Guantanamo..
I have chosen not to take the offered Pfizer shot but instead I have opted for the Astra Zeneca yet still that's not good enough for you and your 'agenda'..
I am hiding nothing nor making up justifications, merely stating my choices.. if this offends you, tough titty.
You however are continuing to make up reasons to have a pop at me, which is fine..
Let the Covid Games continue..

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by UFO

Israel is looking into inflammation of the heart issues with the vaccine.


https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb...zer-covid-shot


I hope you all realise that those taking the jab are part of the bigger trial, if you don't then its time to wise up.

The only reason we are hearing or talking about the handful of heart inflammation cases is because anything and everything COVID is the news. Why are we not talking about the 10 peple killed in gun shootings in Texas and North Carolina in the last week? And that was in the news by the way. Or why are we not talking about the 100s of thousands who die of cancer each year?


I am just going to say that unless you have a medical condition that is exacerbated by getting the vaccine you should get the freaking vaccine.


And aren't we all part of the Matrix experiment already?!!? ;-)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Mike, the other element that I think is going to come home to roost for us, and more likely for our kids is the fiscal mess this will leave as a legacy. Once the fear is gone our kids will want to know why the hell they have to pay so much of their wealth and income to support the interest on the debt we are incurring every day trying to keep everyone whole. It will be vary hard to justify the money we have spent as a result of locking down and trying to pay people to stay home. The awful spectre of people dying in hospital parking lots will be long gone and the legitimate explanation of reacting with the best recommendations will not hold water.
As I have often said, the public policy work has had some significant holes in it but I am sure glad I didn't have to write it.

Agreed. I'm rather left of centre when it comes to social questions, but I too am concerned about how large the public purse spigot has become. We're incurring massive debt that we all have to pay -- somehow.

Luckily, with interest rates at historic low levels, money is virtually free. But if rates rise, and we don't see the economic bounce-back that we're all expecting, Canada could be back into the dark days of the early 1990s when we were almost a financial basket case. The effort it took to get out of that hole is not something anyone should want to see again.

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by UFO

Indo shut a day or 2 ago and Thailand is expensive.


As they say, Where there is a will there is a way.


The whole vaccination thing is not going to pan out - Too many variants of covid which they will never keep up with on a global scale along with people unable to get vaccinated because the supply is not there - How can they seriously enforce it in such a world? - Quarantine maybe.... Or maybe the world will wake up and come to its senses and realise that it can not control nature and except what will be will be.

It is a tall ask for vaccines to keep up with the variants. Wihtout vaccines at all we have little hope of squelching COVID. We can take baby steps, or we can sit in our own pile of poo and hope someone else cleans it up. hmmm.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

This is what gets me about folks like you.. you just cannot resist putting your spin on whatever I have said..

You should know, you do it constantly. Or is this just another of your attempts to be provocative without actually meaning it? It's hard to know what you actually mean.

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have never said people should not get vaccinated if they choose to.. I am pro choice, unlike you it seems.

Wrong. Stop putting your own spin on my words. I stated clearly my position. Do you need a reference?

Originally Posted by boatman61

I just do not accept your claim that an unvaccinated person is a threat to vaccinated people.. else why bother vaccinating..

Doesn't matter what you believe. Reality says something else. Unvaccinated people are at a much greater risk of getting the virus. Vaccination does not provide perfect protection.

Originally Posted by boatman61

and the implication that those who cannot be vaccinated for health or religious reasons should be ostracized or sent to Alcatraz or Guantanamo..

Again, more massive spin. Never said anything close to that. No one has. Spin, spin, spin.

Originally Posted by boatman61

I have chosen not to take the offered Pfizer shot but instead I have opted for the Astra Zeneca yet still that's not good enough for you and your 'agenda'..

This is an outright lie, as you just read from my previous posts.

Originally Posted by boatman61

I am hiding nothing nor making up justifications, merely stating my choices.. if this offends you, tough titty.

Seems that the one offended is you. I'm telling you your choices affect others. That seems to offend you. Sorry, but reality doesn't care how you feel.

Originally Posted by boatman61

You however are continuing to make up reasons to have a pop at me, which is fine..

Believe it or not, but I don't really care about you (that much ). My comments aren't aimed solely or even majorly at you. I'm pleased you're getting the AZ vaccine.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You should know, you do it constantly. Or is this just another of your attempts to be provocative without actually meaning it? It's hard to know what you actually mean.



Wrong. Stop putting your own spin on my words. I stated clearly my position. Do you need a reference?



Doesn't matter what you believe. Reality says something else. Unvaccinated people are at a much greater risk of getting the virus. Vaccination does not provide perfect protection.



Again, more massive spin. Never said anything close to that. No one has. Spin, spin, spin.



This is an outright lie, as you just read from my previous posts.



Seems that the one offended is you. I'm telling you your choices affect others. That seems to offend you. Sorry, but reality doesn't care how you feel.



Believe it or not, but I don't really care about you (that much ). My comments aren't aimed solely or even majorly at you. I'm pleased you're getting the AZ vaccine.

{quote} If you don't want to get vaccinated, then fine. But don't hide behind made up justification. {quote}

The feeling is mutual..

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

{quote} If you don't want to get vaccinated, then fine. But don't hide behind made up justification. {quote}

The feeling is mutual..

The "made up justification" is that the choice around the Covid vaccination only affects the individual. This is "made up," or to be crystal clear, false. It's like saying driving recklessly*, or drunk as Dan more clearly puts it, only affects the driver. This too is false, but some who do it will use this as a justification.

I'm not sure which feeling is mutual.

*Or cruising without liability insurance.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Mike, the other element that I think is going to come home to roost for us, and more likely for our kids is the fiscal mess this will leave as a legacy.

I am not a business whiz or an economist, but from what I've heard/read, answers to the questions I've asked, and other input... I am persuaded that economic recovery is assured and won't take decades. History shows how this happens. The stock markets reflect a certain optimism about future prospects, and many experts have stated that most of the COVID stimulus money has been well-targeted, and has so far stopped major economies from cratering. And there's pent-up demand for many of the goods and services (like travel) that people have been shut out of. Look at the hot markets in RVs, used boats, cars, real estate. There are shortages of lumber because of all the reno's going on. Up here, just about all of the good campgrounds are booked solid into September.

Biden is finally rolling out Trump's massive infrastructure improvements ( - joke! - plz don't hurt me) and that stuff has been long overdue, pandemic or not. Canada has some infrastructure needs too.

It's not much of a secret that growth, inflation, and careful monetary policy will pummel today's debts into more manageable amounts tomorrow.

So, I'm fairly optimistic that there will be some sort of economic boom coming out of the pandemic. Creative (or other) destruction is part of capitalism; hurt businesses will spring back up, or new ones quickly started, to meet strong demand.

If you're truly concerned about what legacy we're leaving to our kids, political turmoil, pollution, and climate change are bigger and tougher problems than COVID debt.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

If you're truly concerned about what legacy we're leaving to our kids, political turmoil, pollution, and climate change are bigger and tougher problems than COVID debt.

I will give you climate change.

Ups and downs in the economy are cyclical and mostly out of the control of governments like Canada's. People and companies win and lose and fortunes are made and lost sometimes at the same time, but this debt problem is growing in magnitude and is already unsustainable if we didn't have the low interest rates we have. We are putting groceries and rent on our national credit cards with little thought beyond some vague thoughts around quantitative easing as a convenient solution.

Currently the Federal debt (not counting the provincial and municipal debts for which we are all responsible) is over a trillion dollars which equates to about $ 30,000.00 per Canadian which is staggering to me, but it is growing at around a billion (a thousand million) dollars a day and likely to accelerate.

I know this is boring and hard to look at but we cannot continue on this path and we need to recognize that fact while we still have choices. For sure we won't have the fiscal room to effectively deal with some of the other important issues we have like pollution and climate change.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I am not a business whiz or an economist, but from what I've heard/read, answers to the questions I've asked, and other input... I am persuaded that economic recovery is assured and won't take decades. History shows how this happens. The stock markets reflect a certain optimism about future prospects, and many experts have stated that most of the COVID stimulus money has been well-targeted, and has so far stopped major economies from cratering. And there's pent-up demand for many of the goods and services (like travel) that people have been shut out of. Look at the hot markets in RVs, used boats, cars, real estate. There are shortages of lumber because of all the reno's going on. Up here, just about all of the good campgrounds are booked solid into September.

Biden is finally rolling out Trump's massive infrastructure improvements ( - joke! - plz don't hurt me) and that stuff has been long overdue, pandemic or not. Canada has some infrastructure needs too.

It's not much of a secret that growth, inflation, and careful monetary policy will pummel today's debts into more manageable amounts tomorrow.

So, I'm fairly optimistic that there will be some sort of economic boom coming out of the pandemic. Creative (or other) destruction is part of capitalism; hurt businesses will spring back up, or new ones quickly started, to meet strong demand.

If you're truly concerned about what legacy we're leaving to our kids, political turmoil, pollution, and climate change are bigger and tougher problems than COVID debt.

Given that before this pandemic began, the US economy was humming along about as well as it ever has,, I’d expect that once the pandemic has significantly subsided, under normal circumstances we’d bounce back in that same direction too, and we seem to be seeing the beginning of that natural tendency.

You’re right that in capitalist markets, hurt businesses tend to spring back and new ones are quickly started. But when you have the government giving potential employees a paycheck to stay home that exceeds what small businesses can afford to pay entry level workers, and taxes on businesses are increasing, those things can strangle a recovery so the growth you foresee as part of the solution to this downturn may be quite limited. Also, while its true that inflation makes it possible to pay off debts more easily, it also diminishes the spending power of those depending on fixed retirements or savings. So, of the 3 elements you listed, that leaves “careful monetary policy” to pummel today’s ever mounting debt. Color me skeptical on that one!

We all can probably endlessly debate what’s the ‘most’ worrisome legacy we leave future generations, but it’s not an either/or question. Incurring huge debts today will not slow climate change, decrease pollution, or prevent political turmoil by any measurable amount, so there’s no getting around the fact that debts we pile up today will be an additional problem for todays young people to grapple with.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sigh... we've been over this a thousand times here, so might as well make it 1001 .

Taking the "bus, the train or drive my car or bike, ..." are ALL personal choices that almost exclusively affect just the person who makes the choice. Wearing of masks and getting vaccinated is a choice that affects everyone around you. This simple fact seems to elude some of you. As the saying goes, it's not just about you.

The true equivalent would be choosing to drive a car recklessly, endangering everyone else on the highway. This is not just a personal choice. It affects everyone.

Try this one... how do you feel about people cruising without any insurance? Most here consider this wrong, if not immoral, since it means you put others at risk if you crash into them. This is the same as not wearing a mask or not getting vaccinated.

No, everything you do affects other people too, no mather what.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

... when you have the government giving potential employees a paycheck to stay home that exceeds what small businesses can afford to pay entry level workers

The worker aid programs have a cut-off date. The US has had a low-wage problem since well before the pandemic, and it still needs to be addressed.

Also, while its true that inflation makes it possible to pay off debts more easily, it also diminishes the spending power of those depending on fixed retirements or savings.

Retirements are usually funded on investments and the equity in increasing assets (like one's home), which should somewhat track inflation. A retirement fund that doesn't track that is a lousy fund. The current low interest "holiday" isn't a forever thing; inflation is a given. Again, a problem that's existed well before COVID.

So, of the 3 elements you listed, that leaves “careful monetary policy” to pummel today’s ever mounting debt. Color me skeptical on that one!

I said previously that walking is simply falling forward, but well-controlled . I believe that economic policy on the national and global scale is becoming more and more a management issue, and less dependent on some antique concepts like the gold standard. And likely to become more so in future.

Question: when there's a national debt, who holds it? Who exactly needs to be "paid back"?

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Kamen

The risk of dying in a car crash in the US is about the same as the risk of dying from Covid.

I call BS:

Deaths from car crashes in the US in Calendar 2020--42,000

Deaths from Covid in the US in 12 months 3/2020 to 3/2021 --550,000