With lithium do we actually need a dedicated starter battery?

[more]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Now that price sounds more like it really should be . Hope you get them for the 18€ they were listed for if not time to talk to a barrister.

2 is in shipping company, i also order for 7€ 20x 600w tie grid mini inverter this is deye 600w.this is stooped
this off grid inverter is chinese copy off mppsolar. voltronic

i have brand new 500w 200x100 cm but to big for boat i need 170 x100 now i married this new solar panel with mini tie grid inverter and try sale to condo balcony solar.if not i am in biger finacial lose inverter i need for ups charging my house battery. and mppt. battery charger 70A 48v cost over 20€

VEVOR 600W Solar Grid Tie Micro Inverter 220V, grid tie inverter with 1.5 m Power Cable, grid tie micro inverter micro grid tie inverter 180-260VAC
Power: 600 W
7,99 € x8 shipped out

10x cancelet return money to paypal

also 199€ 5000w 12v returned money like out stock

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by more

2 is in shipping company, i also order for 7€ 20x 600w tie grid mini inverter this is deye 600w.this is stooped
this off grid inverter is chinese copy off mppsolar. voltronic

i have brand new 500w 200x100 cm but to big for boat i need 170 x100 now i married this new solar panel with mini tie grid inverter and try sale to condo balcony solar.if not i am in biger finacial lose inverter i need for ups charging my house battery. and mppt. battery charger 70A 48v cost over 20€

VEVOR 600W Solar Grid Tie Micro Inverter 220V, grid tie inverter with 1.5 m Power Cable, grid tie micro inverter micro grid tie inverter 180-260VAC
Power: 600 W
7,99 € x8 shipped out

10x cancelet return money to paypal

also 199€ 5000w 12v returned money like out stock

Dang if I had all the stuff you got for cheap I could unload it all In a couple days for a big profit here . Lots of sailing cats with room .

[more]

first 5000 va inverter come,is huge i think shiping cost minimum 25€ this is almost 20 kg big packaged.

this first i leave for my house.
i go install this now.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by more

first 5000 va inverter come,is huge i think shiping cost minimum 25€ this is almost 20 kg big packaged.

this first i leave for my house.
i go install this now.

Congrats 5kw for 18Euro is robbed to panties
Should have ordered too when you posted, thought it was a scam.

[aqfishing]

2 sayings come to mind…

If it too good to be true it usually is…

Goed koop is duur koop…(buying cheap is often expensive (in the long run!))

And I think the is especially relevant when dealing with complex electronics/Batteries in a marine environment.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

2 sayings come to mind…

If it too good to be true it usually is…

Goed koop is duur koop…(buying cheap is often expensive (in the long run!))

And I think the is especially relevant when dealing with complex electronics/Batteries in a marine environment.

Vevor is a good brand, used by many in DIY solar forum.
Vevor is actually one of a few companies left producing low frequency inverters, yes its standby consumption is huge which is its downside but who eg just uses it for electric galley or ac and then switch off the inverter, thats a beast that will handle that a long time for very little money. Same who is looking for a cheap lithium shore charger, cannot get cheaper 75A charge with an adjustable charge profil to lithium.
Not everyone can or want to afford victron or mastervolts....and who has eg a weekend boat or uses it 3-5 a year costal don't have to use victron gear, good cheap alternatives are definitely worth considering it here
Same giandel inverters, used widely in RVs and also boats.
For more it was obviously an admin mistake of the vendor were they had wrong prices for their products on aliexpress.
With actual cell prices due to EV crises you can build a quality battery very cheap, a 1/4 of a good brand one like eg victron with the same cells and a better BMS.

I often recommend the vevor low frequency 12V/3000W as a 2 nd boost inverter to victron multi for eg electric galley. If you eg have a multi 1600/16 or 12A transfer switch the 1600W runs 24/7 while the vevor runs/ get swiched on/off when using the electric galley via AC in and generator assist of the victron multi steering the multis build in relay. Like this victron takes care about its standby comsumption and supports basic load and vevor just runs where multi has too less power. Like this the vevor will live as long as the multi...plus you get additional 75A shorepower charge for free on top.
Hard to beat combo in price versus output and reliability. Even more if you get the multi 1600 used as you often get it very cheap used for 300-400Euro as people upgrade in voltage or inverter size and victron covering the weakness of the vevors standby power.
Low frequency inverter handle the surges of microwaves or induction stoves easily and don't get destroyed by the surges as an iron traffo is handling the loads and up/down stepping and not mosfets. Other then standby power and additional features you can save much money in an low frequency design or it won't simply work...thats why their are not many companies left in general that produce low frequency, even less in budget range.

[lateral]

Haven't been keeping up with the lingo.
I presume a hybrid system is lead in parallel with Li?
What is a buffer battery and how is it used?
Or is the buffer part of the hybrid?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by lateral

Haven't been keeping up with the lingo.
I presume a hybrid system is lead in parallel with Li?
What is a buffer battery and how is it used?
Or is the buffer part of the hybrid?

Hybrid system is lead in parallel with lithium. A hybrid house/starter is a battery or bank to run your house and start your engine from.
A buffer battery is typically used at the Navstation and is a small AGM, LTO or Lifepo4. connected directly to the main power cable at the navstation goes an isolated DC2DC converter or charger and then the buffer battery either connected to the whole switchboard or just to part of it for mainly the senstive Navelectronics like plotter, radar, Ap computer and life depending systems.
Its job is to a) compensate voltage drop from main power cable to give all connected devices optimal voltage range to work
B)galvanically isolate the connected devices from the rest of the vessel so they cannot be damaged by spikes, surges and electric distoration created by all kinds of motors, inverters...so they live longer. Newer plotters and radars the manufacturer saved money on the filtering of the power supply means spikes kill it more frequently as the weak filters cannot protect it...know for eg new raymarine Quantum series and the Axiom plotters and the new B&G Zeus series too. Also anything with a motor like freshwater pump or compressors of fridge and freezers live longer with higher voltage.
C) the buffer will deliver constantly power even if the house battery is not present because eg BMS shut it off, empty,defect...so eg plotter and ap continuous to work without interrupt and you have a lot more time to fix your house battery issues or to switch over to starter in the other hull as your 2nd backup.
D) isolate the rest of the ship from devices connected to top of the mast in case of a lightening strike. In a near miss your chances are very high only the DC2DC and connected devices are damaged or dead, a direct hit it will most likely the buffer takes most of hit and there is a good chance the DC2DC gets not arced. An LTO has the biggest chance to even survive that undamaged.
E)the buffer is always full (or close to full if using a lifepo4) independent of the SOC of the house bank.
F)if you choose a LTO or small Winston battery as buffer you can also emergency start the engine from it. I tap with a switch into the power cable for the windlass for that so you don't even have to run a seperate cable for that and can also use the windlass via buffer.

This because my STB engine starts from house and no dedicated starter battery anymore and the buffer is the backup for it (or the starter battery in the other hull as i have a cat)
A starter battery sits useless 99% around full doing nothing and waiting to be used for 10sek when starting the engine. Better to start from your lifepo4 house and use this battery as buffer as this constantly serves much more purposes (see above a till f) and has several advantages over the sole use as starter.
Additionally house and buffer are in continuous use so i know they work both, no bad surprises you wanna start and the full shown starter batterie from voltage and battery monitor is collaping under load because its floated dry or has developed a cell short.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hybrid system is lead in parallel with lithium. A hybrid house/starter is a battery or bank to run your house and start your engine from.
A buffer battery is typically used at the Navstation and is a small AGM, LTO or Lifepo4. connected directly to the main power cable at the navstation goes an isolated DC2DC converter or charger and then the buffer battery either connected to the whole switchboard or just to part of it for mainly the senstive Navelectronics like plotter, radar, Ap computer and life depending systems.
Its job is to a) compensate voltage drop from main power cable to give all connected devices optimal voltage range to work
B)galvanically isolate the connected devices from the rest of the vessel so they cannot be damaged by spikes, surges and electric distoration created by all kinds of motors, inverters...so they live longer. Newer plotters and radars the manufacturer saved money on the filtering of the power supply means spikes kill it more frequently as the weak filters cannot protect it...know for eg new raymarine Quantum series and the Axiom plotters and the new B&G Zeus series too. Also anything with a motor like freshwater pump or compressors of fridge and freezers live longer with higher voltage.
C) the buffer will deliver constantly power even if the house battery is not present because eg BMS shut it off, empty,defect...so eg plotter and ap continuous to work without interrupt and you have a lot more time to fix your house battery issues or to switch over to starter in the other hull as your 2nd backup.
D) isolate the rest of the ship from devices connected to top of the mast in case of a lightening strike. In a near miss your chances are very high only the DC2DC and connected devices are damaged or dead, a direct hit it will most likely the buffer takes most of hit and there is a good chance the DC2DC gets not arced. An LTO has the biggest chance to even survive that undamaged.
E)the buffer is always full (or close to full if using a lifepo4) independent of the SOC of the house bank.
F)if you choose a LTO or small Winston battery as buffer you can also emergency start the engine from it. I tap with a switch into the power cable for the windlass for that so you don't even have to run a seperate cable for that and can also use the windlass via buffer.

This because my STB engine starts from house and no dedicated starter battery anymore and the buffer is the backup for it (or the starter battery in the other hull as i have a cat)
A starter battery sits useless 99% around full doing nothing and waiting to be used for 10sek when starting the engine. Better to start from your lifepo4 house and use this battery as buffer as this constantly serves much more purposes (see above a till f) and has several advantages over the sole use as starter.
Additionally house and buffer are in continuous use so i know they work both, no bad surprises you wanna start and the full shown starter batterie from voltage and battery monitor is collaping under load because its floated dry or has developed a cell short.

This information is completely wrong and dangerous advice.
Am I really the only one on these forums that sees this..Surely some others of you have the same opinion.
I am trying to work on my electric outboard and then I come across these continual War & Peace inspired writings that are nearly impossible to understand and interdispersed in this is extremely wrong advice that could cause some of the less electrically savvy to do lots of damage.
Can some of you please speak up, you can't always leave it up to me.
Don't follow this advice.

Now back to my Trolling vs Electric outboard project.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Fuss

This information is completely wrong and dangerous advice.
Am I really the only one on these forums that sees this..Surely some others of you have the same opinion.
I am trying to work on my electric outboard and then I come across these continual War & Peace inspired writings that are nearly impossible to understand and interdispersed in this is extremely wrong advice that could cause some of the less electrically savvy to do lots of damage.
Can some of you please speak up, you can't always leave it up to me.
Don't follow this advice.

Now back to my Trolling vs Electric outboard project.

I do notice something lots of words when the answer would be likely 3 sentences.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hybrid system is lead in parallel with lithium. A hybrid house/starter is a battery or bank to run your house and start your engine from.
A buffer battery is typically used at the Navstation and is a small AGM, LTO or Lifepo4. connected directly to the main power cable at the navstation goes an isolated DC2DC converter or charger and then the buffer battery either connected to the whole switchboard or just to part of it for mainly the senstive Navelectronics like plotter, radar, Ap computer and life depending systems.
Its job is to a) compensate voltage drop from main power cable to give all connected devices optimal voltage range to work
.

There now that answers the question better and much less confusion

Yep 3 sentances

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

There now that answers the question better and much less confusion

Yep 3 sentances

Then you and Fuss should explain whats wrong with a buffer and why. Many here have it eg. Jedi, Terry T1...just to name a few which definitely know what they are doing.

The only thing thats newer is you can use it as backup emergency starter if choosing the right(!) buffer battery but you don't have to. Thats optional to a dedicated starter or without one and i don't see a reason why you shouldn't if the battery is capable of handling that...a 12AH AGM is not but a 20AH LTO Toshiba SCRIB is.

He was asking what it does.
Its 20years old this concept of a buffer, a lot of vessels have it including mine when i bought it...a 15AH motorbike AGM at the navstation.
And I simply explained what it does and in c) why its necessary more then ever.

Take a c70 raymarine and a new axiom and look at the powersupply and you will quickly see with your own eyes why...axiom and zeus plotters are dying surprisingly often nowadays but non had a buffer, the once they do have no problem hardware wise, the lighthouse software is still a pain though...

[CaptainRivet]

Installation of a buffer is super easy and who cannot handle that should not touch his engine for maintenance.
Disconnect the main power cables from switchboard and connect it to DC2DC converter or charger, charger to buffer cable with a fuse, buffer with a fuse connect back to switchpanel and done.
If its a lithium style buffer (LTO or Lifepo4) with BMS you can use remote or ignition input of DC2DC as cutoff switch.
Set your DC2DC up like it is a starter battery. If its a lifepo4 i would set absorption to 13.8V with 5min and float at 13.35 and 0.1V to artifically cycle it so it doesn't stay on high level a long time. Job done.

[s/v Jedi]

No, Jedi does not have it. Jedi smart, he is!

We keep it simple with the alternator charging a start battery exactly like the engine manufacturer recommends. Nothing parallel, nothing hybrid.

If you really want to charge the house battery directly with an engine mounted alternator and don’t mind a shortened lifespan of the LA start battery, then configure the regulator for lfp and use a battery isolator between alternator and the batteries. Victron ArgoFET is a great choice.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, Jedi does not have it. Jedi smart, he is!

We keep it simple with the alternator charging a start battery exactly like the engine manufacturer recommends. Nothing parallel, nothing hybrid.

If you really want to charge the house battery directly with an engine mounted alternator and don’t mind a shortened lifespan of the LA start battery, then configure the regulator for lfp and use a battery isolator between alternator and the batteries. Victron ArgoFET is a great choice.

Sure you have an AGM buffer battery where you can run your nav equipement independently from the house, you wrote it, showed the wiring schematic and even showed picture of the buffer AGM. Also part of your lighting strike prevention. Cannot find the thread right now but i remember i change some cabling on the buffer due to the thread as you had a better solution then mine was before.

Your buffer is a small AGM so you cannot use it as backup starter like i do with the Toshiba 20AH LTO SCIB. But you don't need that as you have 2 AGMs as 12Vstarter which also runs other 12V loads and also needed for the DC2DC for the alternators if i remember right, correct?