With lithium do we actually need a dedicated starter battery?

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Still no answer to the question
You still owe us the description and explaination whats the issue with LTO, facts and no bla lbla.
Again just a personal attack i have no glue what i am doing....
Compared to you i understand the difffernt lithium chemistries, its real specs and what you can do or shouldn't do...we tested extreme and beyond and thats valid for all use cases, cars, boats,EV, powerstations....and as explained starting an engine is all about starter and its wattage needed, doesn't matter in which vehicle its used.
A boater or a marine installer is never doing all the tests and just trail and error we did in car audio competition (partly sponsored so money played a secondary role), so how does he know all these differnces in the different cells and chemistry???? He doesn't....he never tried running LTOs speced for 6C cont with 10C cont and 20C peaks...we did till they gased out or simply quit working and it took a long time of over 3 years till they did. none burned or caused any damage.
And whats working since 8 years in daily live (with still 96% capacity left) in my buddies Z06 where every other battery, doesn't matter how much it costed, didn't survive more the 3 month is definitly a good battery...more torture you cannot do to a single battery and the 40AH yinglong LTO not only survived but performing absolutely great.
Fuss: How many LTO istalls did you do, doesn't matter where?
And thats why i have a broader horizon then many here and marine installers.
And yes thats also why i start topics like this, to get opinions and use cases i didn't think of or make other think for themsleves.
And yes lead is gone for me for a long time as there are for all use cases better chemistries around.
And i also know for what different cells are developed and used for...and well 30AH LTO prismatic cell from Yinglong where used for the space shuttles eletric system, so enough for me to use on boats.

I understand boat electrics because i can understand the curcuit diamgrams and can read certifications and eg under ISO boats and RV fall under the same guidlines and normes as its called mobile use installations.
And yes i am sailing since >25years and fixed a lot **** on chartboats before....so i know marine too.
I just own one since 5 years because it didn't make sense before....

Shame you can't spell and do grammar as well😅

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Shame you can't spell and do grammar as well😅

Maybe he can in languages you know nothing about? What a sad post from you.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Maybe he can in languages you know nothing about? What a sad post from you.

Oh dear

[OneBoatman]

Yes, this one did start out as a rather vague post, so we shouldn't be too surprised and that it has garnered at least one reply mentioning a car audio competition. They don't have these where I live. Is that where the competitors all first turn their ignition switches to the accessory position, and then turn on their radios when the flag drops, and the last one still making noise is declared the winner? The OP seems to be curious to hear what boaters may have say about lithium batteries. There are six major types, so which type do you have or are considering as right for you. Is your present start battery a problem, or do you want to get rid of it altogether and just use the same ones that serve the house? So which type, how big, what do expect from them, what is the daily draw and what do you use normally to restore them? All of this matters. Certainly, once you are all in, or even part way in, you then need to learn how they behave; can they be kept "happy" with your generator output, solar, wind systems etc. so that you are confident you have capacity in reserve to start your engine after using them for whatever else you use them for. The only rules are that is your choice, your money, and you can always Sea Tow if within cellphone range. If you use Lithium batteries aboard your boat, know that if they catch fire depending on the type you have, you may want to carry a different type of fire extinguisher aboard your boat to have the best chance to stay afloat long enough for help to arrive. If none of this helps and you are taking Lithium as a prescription for medical reasons while at the same time operating your boat, you should probably check first with your doctor, then your insurer, and lastly the US Coast Guard to make sure you are good to go.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

Yes, this one did start out as a rather vague post, so we shouldn't be too surprised and that it has garnered at least one reply mentioning a car audio competition. They don't have these where I live. Is that where the competitors all first turn their ignition switches to the accessory position, and then turn on their radios when the flag drops, and the last one still making noise is declared the winner? The OP seems to be curious to hear what boaters may have say about lithium batteries. There are six major types, so which type do you have or are considering as right for you. Is your present start battery a problem, or do you want to get rid of it altogether and just use the same ones that serve the house? So which type, how big, what do expect from them, what is the daily draw and what do you use normally to restore them? All of this matters. Certainly, once you are all in, or even part way in, you then need to learn how they behave; can they be kept "happy" with your generator output, solar, wind systems etc. so that you are confident you have capacity in reserve to start your engine after using them for whatever else you use them for. The only rules are that is your choice, your money, and you can always Sea Tow if within cellphone range. If you use Lithium batteries aboard your boat, know that if they catch fire depending on the type you have, you may want to carry a different type of fire extinguisher aboard your boat to have the best chance to stay afloat long enough for help to arrive. If none of this helps and you are taking Lithium as a prescription for medical reasons while at the same time operating your boat, you should probably check first with your doctor, then your insurer, and lastly the US Coast Guard to make sure you are good to go.

One observation over the years ince CR started asking LFP questions sever years ago about marine installs you can be assured he will make at a minimum 3 different posts referencing car stereo competition and installed systems .in my country the average age of those people is 23 to 25 years old. So don't know of his home county but .
Dot know what the supposed similarities are to our house banks or starting banks but then I'm. Just a retired shipwright and all around marine a d car mechanic.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Maybe he can in languages you know nothing about? What a sad post from you.

Excellent point. Heck English is my first language and I still kip some of the unnecessary punctuation.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

One observation over the years ince CR started asking LFP questions sever years ago about marine installs you can be assured he will make at a minimum 3 different posts referencing car stereo competition and installed systems .in my country the average age of those people is 23 to 25 years old. So don't know of his home county but .
Dot know what the supposed similarities are to our house banks or starting banks but then I'm. Just a retired shipwright and all around marine a d car mechanic.

Yes i am now 51 so i was 30 and had a company installing also demo cars for the car audio manufacturers. My oldest customer was past 70 with his oldtimer.
Well what you understand as car stereo competition are the maximum SPL freaks means as loud as you can...
i done sound quality means as authentic and precise as possible running class A amps you can use as cooking stove because they get hot like hell just because they sound awesome but have horrible efficiencies. And also absolute correct installs, not that crazy stuff the SPL freaks do..yes done that too but just helped buddies as not my world.

I done installs running 1000A at 13.8V nominal so i know how to install high current low voltage systems in mobile environments and in europe they fall in the same ISO mobile systems category then boats and RVs.

And i know how all these lithium chemistries work at their limits and above, which many professional installers don't know. Starting a diesel is exactly the same if boat, semi truck, SUV or car its all about the starter wattage.

Boat house banks are exactly the same as in RVs or offgrid, its just a different setup means a lot of capacity compared to the total charge of all charge source, in most cases boats its in total 10% of the capacity means you basically charge close to absorption most of time. Also the load on the bank is max 20 till 30% means you basically pamper the lithium cells.
You have to pay more attention to corrosion and safe mechanical install due to salty air and constant 3D vibration. Instead one main charge source alternator (which is the most complicated one) you have 3 or more.
And i can adapt all i know to that in marine use
And yes i know marine very well too, done 12 ocean crossings, many deliveries and be liveaboard since 5 years.
I have just a different horizon and approach to it as we tested so many extreme things and chemistries a lot here even don't know about they exist.

But i don't know all and never will stop learning. I also wanna combine my know how with the once from experienced boat owner or eg shipwright like you who seen a lot too. Electric on boats is important and gets more and more important but that also means existing things done 100 years similar will change while other still will stay.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

.

Boat house banks are exactly the same as in RVs or offgrid, its just a different setup means a lot of capacity compared to the total charge of all charge source, in most cases boats its in total 10% of the capacity means you basically charge close to absorption most of time. Also the load on the bank is max 20 till 30% means you basically pamper the lithium cells.
You have to pay more attention to corrosion and safe mechanical install due to salty air and constant 3D vibration. Instead one main charge source alternator (which is the most complicated one) you have 3 or more.
.

Ok this statement requires some corrections.

We shall use my bank as the base however I know others are similar in the % numbers .
My bank 250ah lifepo4 bank
600 watts solar. (40 amps)
400 watts wind ( 30 amps )
75 amp alternator ( 40 amp dc/dc)
2500 watt inverter charger ( 185 amp draw max) 125 amp shore power charger.)
2500 watt genset to run charger if needed .

My cells have a recommended. .5C charge recommended for longevity as well same for discharge .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Ok this statement requires some corrections.

We shall use my bank as the base however I know others are similar in the % numbers .
My bank 250ah lifepo4 bank
600 watts solar. (40 amps)
400 watts wind ( 30 amps )
75 amp alternator ( 40 amp dc/dc)
2500 watt inverter charger ( 185 amp draw max) 125 amp shore power charger.)
2500 watt genset to run charger if needed .

My cells have a recommended. .5C charge recommended for longevity as well same for discharge .

Yours is definitely an excemption. The 200AH bank size is normally a costal cruiser with one bank for all, half your solar and a small gas galley.
Typical bank size in LFP is 400 till 600AH at 12V with your setup, next level up with 600-1000AH @12V or 400-600AH in 24V with full electric galley like at home with 5kw or 2x3kw inverter, solar depending on mono or cat for space.

As cells and bateries getting cheap a lot just add additional capacity when they eg get deals.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Yours is definitely an excemption. The 200AH bank size is normally a costal cruiser with one bank for all, half your solar and a small gas galley.
Typical bank size in LFP is 400 till 600AH at 12V with your setup, next level up with 600-1000AH @12V or 400-600AH in 24V with full electric galley like at home with 5kw or 2x3kw inverter, solar depending on mono or cat for space.

As cells and bateries getting cheap a lot just add additional capacity when they eg get deals.

My vessel is a 29 ft monohull sailboat so my bank and solar are right in the sweet spot for my size. On my last 40 ft mono I ran 400ah and 800 watts solar. And 5kw genset.

Proper sizing is important. No need to have more that 3 to 4 times your average daily usage . Also normal charging needs to be sized to recover your average use on an average day.
I have 5 x capacity as the cost difference was approx $20USD

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

My vessel is a 29 ft monohull sailboat so my bank and solar are right in the sweet spot for my size. On my last 40 ft mono I ran 400ah and 800 watts solar. And 5kw genset.

Proper sizing is important. No need to have more that 3 to 4 times your average daily usage . Also normal charging needs to be sized to recover your average use on an average day.
I have 5 x capacity as the cost difference was approx $20USD

Your 40ft mono exactly fits in the typical size.

As lithium is getting so cheap it how much capacity ypy get depends on your needs and the system. Eg my harvest varies greatly also on the season, in summer i have more then needed while side season it just fits what i use daily. Additional I have 2 engines each with 80A harvest so 160A which soon will be double to 320A.
Instead modifiying my solar arch and getting more solar output, which would be 2000Euro, i will add another 8 cells in 2x 1p4S 608AH to my 1088AH
so 1696AH (lasting 6-7days without 1 amp recharge ) and the days i have more then i can use it will go into bank, the days i have too less i life from the bank.
Thats only 1000Euro but harvest every AH i ever produce. Cheaper, easier to install and eg i go normally 1 day a month into marina for provisioning and clean boat so that capacity allows me even in side season to make it 1 month with 10-20% SOC and then with shorepower recharge the bank to 100% in the 2 month a year where its tight.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Yours is definitely an excemption. The 200AH bank size is normally a costal cruiser with one bank for all, half your solar and a small gas galley.

We have a total of 765 Ah capacity at 24VDC. Three banks, two for halves of the house DC loads (and each starts an engine), and one for some house AC loads via inverter (and also powers the thruster).

All electric galley. AC-only household style fridge and freezer. (Cooktop, water heater, and AC loads serviced by generator.)

Very similar to many boats of our style, and in sizes from circa 42 to circa 65 feet.

-Chris

[s/v Jedi]

All this talk about Ah is so meaningless. Talk in kWh so that we don’t have to guess at which voltage etc.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

All this talk about Ah is so meaningless. Talk in kWh so that we don’t have to guess at which voltage etc.

No problem my 250ah at 12 v = 3000wh

[Fore and Aft]

SVJedi no one I know talks about kWh it's all Ah.
Captain Rivet 300-400 AH Lithium at 12 volts, along with 400-600w of solar is what I normally see on most boats I survey. Generators are not that common either.
AGM battery storage is another story, and you will often see 600AH plus at 12 volts. Some of my customers switch from AGM to Lithium batteries then remove the generator. In a funny way Lithium helps them simplify their yacht.
Cheers