With lithium do we actually need a dedicated starter battery?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

This system design does not work. It has fundamental design faults that if not apparent to you now, will be further down the track. I have previously commented on these problems and others too I seem to remember but somehow you’re not listening. It’s certainly not simple and the LTO introduces another complexity that will later need solutions.

Please explain whats not working...mine works flawlessly.
The Mitsubishi has temp control, so won't overheat and via argofet charging both Lifepo4 and LTO. When at 95% SoC my BMS switches the BP220 and cuts off the Lifepo4.
LTO has no BMS, just a 20Euro active balancer and has a 18V when 100% SOC which you never reach when floating it with 14.4V, the max that the alternator will deliver.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Large AH 4s LFP connected parallel with small AH 6s LTO without BMS. Hybrid single group. Service, Engine, Windlass, Bow Thruster all in one. Use a parallel connection switch to start the engine. Charge together. Disconnect the LTO battery if you want on anchor.

Also a way to do it.
I have no regulated alternator but temp protected so i need a dump load when lifepo4 disconnects and thats the LTO as it can go up to 18V you can float it for ages with the alternator delivering max 14.4V. So the classic argofet way is simpler and cheaper.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Also a way to do it.
I have no regulated alternator but temp protected so i need a dump load when lifepo4 disconnects and thats the LTO as it can go up to 18V you can float it for ages with the alternator delivering max 14.4V. So the classic argofet way is simpler and cheaper.

LTO cells plus battery isolator still double my fla and dc dc
Why try to convince people they need to spend money they don't have to .
Your boat / my boat again

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

LTO cells plus battery isolator still double my fla and dc dc
Why try to convince people they need to spend money they don't have to .
Your boat / my boat again

Was not ment for you.
I show maninly sailors economical options and possible setups to the dreaded and stoneage lead.
And make them start thinking about their setups when its eg time to replace the lead bank.
Many are still afraid of lithium as the unknown, they catch fire bs and defend what they know instead of admitting they have no idea.
And LTO is even more unknown as its really a niche product but fits perfect for all lithium conversions as the "partner" for the Lifepo4 house in the setups with the common new alternators on the newer volvos and Yanmars.
And with EV crises the prices of cells now came so far down that its a nobrainer to go all lithium.
Just many don't know how....

LTO is 108$+20$ for balancer is 128$ for a 20years+ batterylife that replaces a up to 120AH AGM battery which cost the same (a brand 100 till 120AH AGM) , does only 300 cycles or relaible 3 years, 5 is good and 7 exceptional.
The cheap renogy 30A DC2DC is 129Euro, the same then a 200A Argofet.
So AGM+DC2DC has the same purchase costs then LTO+Arofet but AGM+DC2DC has only 30A charge, lifes 5 years, best case 7 (used regularly as lifeaboard) versus 80-85A charge lifes 20years plus. So for the same purchase cost LTO is already much more economical, if you look at total cost at 10years, lead costs double (without the additional install cost or time of replacement). Well and LTO will work beyond the 10 years...
Not for your boat but for every 50hp 40-50ft Mono or 40-50ft catamaran even quadruple cost more as you have it twice.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Was not ment for you.
I show maninly sailors economical options and possible setups to the dreaded and stoneage lead.
And make them start thinking about their setups when its eg time to replace the lead bank.
Many are still afraid of lithium as the unknown, they catch fire bs and defend what they know instead of admitting they have no idea.
And LTO is even more unknown as its really a niche product but fits perfect for all lithium conversions as the "partner" for the Lifepo4 house in the setups with the common new alternators on the newer volvos and Yanmars.
And with EV crises the prices of cells now came so far down that its a nobrainer to go all lithium.
Just many don't know how....

LTO is 108$+20$ for balancer is 128$ for a 20years+ batterylife that replaces a up to 120AH AGM battery which cost the same (a brand 100 till 120AH AGM) , does only 300 cycles or relaible 3 years, 5 is good and 7 exceptional.
The cheap renogy 30A DC2DC is 129Euro, the same then a 200A Argofet.
So AGM+DC2DC has the same purchase costs then LTO+Arofet but AGM+DC2DC has only 30A charge, lifes 5 years, best case 7 (used regularly as lifeaboard) versus 80-85A charge lifes 20years plus. So for the same purchase cost LTO is already much more economical, if you look at total cost at 10years, lead costs double (without the additional install cost or time of replacement). Well and LTO will work beyond the 10 years...
Not for your boat but for every 50hp 40-50ft Mono or 40-50ft catamaran even quadruple cost more as you have it twice.

Sorry sometimes I forget this is an international forum and people don't get the generalization of comments and sarcasm.
My statement was not me specific but a general people statement.

You keep specifying AGM however its interesting that in my career i only had one customer with AGM Abanks of any type. It was quickly replaced with FLA the agm were consistently failing within 3 years . While the FLA were lasting 5 to 7 years. ( back when lifepo4 was to expensive) several now converted as prices are now competitive. Still using fla start.
Li time is talking about a new lifepo4 100ah start bank with up to 500amp for cranking hoping to be on shelves by mid June. I will post when they email me the specs.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by Fuss

This system design does not work. It has fundamental design faults that if not apparent to you now, will be further down the track. I have previously commented on these problems and others too I seem to remember but somehow you’re not listening. It’s certainly not simple and the LTO introduces another complexity that will later need solutions.

Fuss, what is the complexity that you have mentioned about LTO batteries that will require a solution later? You haven't responded to those who asked this yet...Please enlighten us.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Fuss, what is the complexity that you have mentioned about LTO batteries that will require a solution later? You haven't responded to those who asked this yet...Please enlighten us.

I thought you are an electrical engineer.
Anyway, No one is going to install these complying with the advice in this thread.
There are some important points that are not covered.
Install them exactly following the design recommended in this thread, start your engine and they might work fine and you can post how great they are.


The problem is that you have not gone anywhere with them, just like Rivet, no boat experience with them at all. A couple of years down the track, you have replaced/modified just about everything in your attempts to accommodate them.


Just install lead its cheap and works fine, or take the advice of the Danish guy whose thread I linked earlier. But this is not for most forumites.



If you like experimenting and want a backup to your lead starter then install a used maxwell capacitor on the other 1 2 both switch.



Oh, you want to start the motor and run the windlass off it too and some other stuff...oh dear oh dear.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I thought you are an electrical engineer.
Anyway, No one is going to install these complying with the advice in this thread.
There are some important points that are not covered.
Install them exactly following the design recommended in this thread, start your engine and they might work fine and you can post how great they are.


The problem is that you have not gone anywhere with them, just like Rivet, no boat experience with them at all. A couple of years down the track, you have replaced/modified just about everything in your attempts to accommodate them.


Just install lead its cheap and works fine, or take the advice of the Danish guy whose thread I linked earlier. But this is not for most forumites.



If you like experimenting and want a backup to your lead starter then install a used maxwell capacitor on the other 1 2 both switch.



Oh, you want to start the motor and run the windlass off it too and some other stuff...oh dear oh dear.

Thats bla bla bla.
But no clear facts.
Enlighten us what is exactly the issue with LTO i need to adapt that they work.
Explain in detail, happy to learn that al i done last 10year with LTO was wrong despite noone have the silightest problem with them.always eager to learn...and if i am worng i will admit it.
Just a little hint with your supercapacitors testing...Toshiba tried them as boost "batteries" for the Lifepo4 in EVs and failed, thats why they devloped the SCIB LTO cells....
Supercapictors are great for extremly short high current bursts, the car audio amplifiers (and also stationary at home) and thats why high quality have a lot of capacity already build in and thats why we used them additional to all battery chemistries in car stereo competition too. I come from that sceen and we tried all far beyond the specs given if there was any...often used scrapped stuff from military without any docs or specs got over shaddy channels 10-15 years ago and just tried our luck :-)

A starter needs longer more stable current delivery and supercapacitor need to be extraordinary huge to provide that, the same as an eletric motor spinning up and LTO SCIB are exactly produced for that purpose as they can deliver that longer high current much better then supercaps and then recharged by Lifepo4 with huge capacity capabilities for the longrange of EVs.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Thats bla bla bla.
But no clear facts.
Enlighten us what is exactly the issue with LTO i need to adapt that they work.
Explain in detail, happy to learn that al i done last 10year with LTO was wrong despite noone have the silightest problem with them.always eager to learn...and if i am worng i will admit it.
Just a little hint with your supercapacitors testing...Toshiba tried them as boost "batteries" for the Lifepo4 in EVs and failed, thats why they devloped the SCIB LTO cells....
Supercapictors are great for extremly short high current bursts, the car audio amplifiers (and also stationary at home) and thats why high quality have a lot of capacity already build in and thats why we used them additional to all battery chemistries in car stereo competition too. I come from that sceen and we tried all far beyond the specs given if there was any...often used scrapped stuff from military without any docs or specs got over shaddy channels 10-15 years ago and just tried our luck :-)

A starter needs longer more stable current delivery and supercapacitor need to be extraordinary huge to provide that, the same as an eletric motor spinning up and LTO SCIB are exactly produced for that purpose as they can deliver that longer high current much better then supercaps and then recharged by Lifepo4 with huge capacity capabilities for the longrange of EVs.

10 years of LTO experience ok where are the pictures of those marine installations?

Just stick with LEAD it has a pedigree and good working history starting engines.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

10 years of LTO experience ok where are the pictures of those marine installations?

Just stick with LEAD it has a pedigree and good working history starting engines.

The lovely lead led me so many times down i cannot count anymore with dead batteries...installed a lithium and a disconnect switch and all good, eg car started up a year later without any issues, just close discinnect switch and start and without carry heavy leads around because the storage had no power avaliable...

No boats then, car competition audio with installs that draw up to 1000A+, ampifiers running at 0.25ohm and 16-18V thanks to LTO (use 7 cells in series:-), starter and car electric was connected to 6th cell) to trick the wattage competition classes. Starting in A300 class, means total 300w at 4ohm at 13.8V nominal and no modifications to 12V car system allowed (sure changing cables to current needed etc but no additional batteries with higher system voltage....) , so the sole car starter battery needed to power all...well we had nearly 2000W at 0.25ohm and the only battery surviving that was LTO.
And racing where we used Lithium/LTO 10-20AH batteries as starter. Thats how i know how these different Lithium chemistry behaves in real world, what you can, what you should and shouldn't do.
And starting a V8 6l diesel in a semi truck, or a 5.2lV10 tdi or a 7lV8 corvette Z06 is no difference to a boat engine starting, its all about the watts the starter needs to crank it plus the glow plugs if has some. And they all have alternators.
Same RVs or campers, we racers all have for the whole trackday or race weekend.
Doing boats since 5 years as i am a early retired lifeaboard (before chartering a lot as it didn't make sense to own a boat) for the rum kitty, no commercial interests.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I thought you are an electrical engineer.
Anyway, No one is going to install these complying with the advice in this thread.
There are some important points that are not covered.
Install them exactly following the design recommended in this thread, start your engine and they might work fine and you can post how great they are.


The problem is that you have not gone anywhere with them, just like Rivet, no boat experience with them at all. A couple of years down the track, you have replaced/modified just about everything in your attempts to accommodate them.


Just install lead its cheap and works fine, or take the advice of the Danish guy whose thread I linked earlier. But this is not for most forumites.



If you like experimenting and want a backup to your lead starter then install a used maxwell capacitor on the other 1 2 both switch.



Oh, you want to start the motor and run the windlass off it too and some other stuff...oh dear oh dear.

LTO batteries are not a very new technology. LTO is a type of Lithium cell with certain remarkable properties. Many boat owners do not know how and where to use LTO cells. LTO has many superior features that LA batteries do not have, such as long life, high performance, ability to operate in a wide ambient temperature range and lightness. In addition, with the ability to charge and discharge with much higher currents than LA batteries, they will undoubtedly replace LA batteries soon. In fact, these superior features indicate that the current LTO battery price is not too high in the long term.

You are talking about a problem with the LTO battery application, but you cannot explain it fully. You don't know the problem which is not exist. If you can explain it technically, we can understand what it is and help you with it.

The first link I have given before explains the energy requirements of the engine starting, windlass, bow thruster and how the LTO battery can easily meet them alone, with energy and power formulas. Have a problem with these calculations? In the same link, there is a statement from a CF member named "rocks" who runs two large diesel engines with LTO batteries. In the other link you sent me, positive results were announced regarding the engine and windlass application run by a CF member named "BjarneK" with the same LTO battery. In these links, issues related to LTO batteries are clearly explained in technical language. Are you ignoring C.Rivet's 10 years of LTO experience? Didn't he also ask you to explain the problem with LTO that you mentioned?

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

The lovely lead led me so many times down i cannot count anymore with dead batteries...installed a lithium and a disconnect switch and all good, eg car started up a year later without any issues, just close discinnect switch and start and without carry heavy leads around because the storage had no power avaliable...

No boats then, car competition audio with installs that draw up to 1000A+, ampifiers running at 0.25ohm and 16-18V thanks to LTO (use 7 cells in series:-), starter and car electric was connected to 6th cell) to trick the wattage competition classes. Starting in A300 class, means total 300w at 4ohm at 13.8V nominal and no modifications to 12V car system allowed (sure changing cables to current needed etc but no additional batteries with higher system voltage....) , so the sole car starter battery needed to power all...well we had nearly 2000W at 0.25ohm and the only battery surviving that was LTO.
And racing where we used Lithium/LTO 10-20AH batteries as starter. Thats how i know how these different Lithium chemistry behaves in real world, what you can, what you should and shouldn't do.
And starting a V8 6l diesel in a semi truck, or a 5.2lV10 tdi or a 7lV8 corvette Z06 is no difference to a boat engine starting, its all about the watts the starter needs to crank it plus the glow plugs if has some. And they all have alternators.
Same RVs or campers, we racers all have for the whole trackday or race weekend.
Doing boats since 5 years as i am a early retired lifeaboard (before chartering a lot as it didn't make sense to own a boat) for the rum kitty, no commercial interests.

Well there we have it, nearly no boat electrical experience yet spends the last year overrunning the electrical forums with advice and self promoted ideas. I’m surprised you didn’t pick up on this earlier solar support.

We need ideas from people who have actually installed and time tested their ideas. Otherwise every electrical thread is filled with chaos and misinformation.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Well there we have it, nearly no boat electrical experience yet spends the last year overrunning the electrical forums with advice and self promoted ideas. I’m surprised you didn’t pick up on this earlier solar support.

We need ideas from people who have actually installed and time tested their ideas. Otherwise every electrical thread is filled with chaos and misinformation.

Still no answer to the question
You still owe us the description and explaination whats the issue with LTO, facts and no bla lbla.
Again just a personal attack i have no glue what i am doing....
Compared to you i understand the difffernt lithium chemistries, its real specs and what you can do or shouldn't do...we tested extreme and beyond and thats valid for all use cases, cars, boats,EV, powerstations....and as explained starting an engine is all about starter and its wattage needed, doesn't matter in which vehicle its used.
A boater or a marine installer is never doing all the tests and just trail and error we did in car audio competition (partly sponsored so money played a secondary role), so how does he know all these differnces in the different cells and chemistry???? He doesn't....he never tried running LTOs speced for 6C cont with 10C cont and 20C peaks...we did till they gased out or simply quit working and it took a long time of over 3 years till they did. none burned or caused any damage.
And whats working since 8 years in daily live (with still 96% capacity left) in my buddies Z06 where every other battery, doesn't matter how much it costed, didn't survive more the 3 month is definitly a good battery...more torture you cannot do to a single battery and the 40AH yinglong LTO not only survived but performing absolutely great.
Fuss: How many LTO istalls did you do, doesn't matter where?
And thats why i have a broader horizon then many here and marine installers.
And yes thats also why i start topics like this, to get opinions and use cases i didn't think of or make other think for themsleves.
And yes lead is gone for me for a long time as there are for all use cases better chemistries around.
And i also know for what different cells are developed and used for...and well 30AH LTO prismatic cell from Yinglong where used for the space shuttles eletric system, so enough for me to use on boats.

I understand boat electrics because i can understand the curcuit diamgrams and can read certifications and eg under ISO boats and RV fall under the same guidlines and normes as its called mobile use installations.
And yes i am sailing since >25years and fixed a lot **** on chartboats before....so i know marine too.
I just own one since 5 years because it didn't make sense before....

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Fuss, You have no significant contribution to the applications and ideas shared in the Lithium Power systems forum, and you cannot go beyond making uninformed and unfounded criticism. It is obvious that you cannot answer our questions. By unfairly criticizing people and creating problems that do not exist, you distract group members who are trying to follow the discussion thread. We understand that you have a very strong bond with the lead acid battery.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Fuss, You have no significant contribution to the applications and ideas shared in the Lithium Power systems forum, and you cannot go beyond making uninformed and unfounded criticism. It is obvious that you cannot answer our questions. By unfairly criticizing people and creating problems that do not exist, you distract group members who are trying to follow the discussion thread. We understand that you have a very strong bond with the lead acid battery.

:
Are you homeported in turkyie or visiting there for a long stay?
Looks beautiful there