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Old 19-01-2025, 11:51   #1
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Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

Good evening,

We currently have 5 x 102Ah Trojan Gel 12v batteries for the domestic bank that are charged via the following sources:

1 x alternator with a Mastervolt Alpha 3 programmable charge regulator for engine charging.
Mastervolt mass combi 12/100/2500 inverter/charger for shore power/generator charging.
Mastervolt 500 shunt.
Mastervolt Easyview 5 display.
6 x Victron MPPT controllers and 820W of solar panels for solar charging.

Thinking of replacing the 510Ah of domestic batteries with 2 x 280Ah Eco worthy LifePo4 batteries, so is my current charging set up compatible (though aware I will have to purchase the Mastervolt USB interface to program the alterrnator)?

Thanks
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Old 19-01-2025, 14:18   #2
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Originally Posted by davethedog View Post
Good evening,

We currently have 5 x 102Ah Trojan Gel 12v batteries for the domestic bank that are charged via the following sources:

1 x alternator with a Mastervolt Alpha 3 programmable charge regulator for engine charging.
Mastervolt mass combi 12/100/2500 inverter/charger for shore power/generator charging.
Mastervolt 500 shunt.
Mastervolt Easyview 5 display.
6 x Victron MPPT controllers and 820W of solar panels for solar charging.

Thinking of replacing the 510Ah of domestic batteries with 2 x 280Ah Eco worthy LifePo4 batteries, so is my current charging set up compatible (though aware I will have to purchase the Mastervolt USB interface to program the alterrnator)?

Thanks
If those batteries have full Bluetooth interface then fine. If not, find some that have it. If you want to see how frequent these style of batteries cause problems, have a look at Will Prowse website. There are better solutions for marine batteries in my opinion
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Old 19-01-2025, 15:51   #3
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

You should reach out to Mastervolt to find out if the external regulator parameters can be set in a way compatible with LFO.
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Old 20-01-2025, 00:54   #4
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

There will be some obstacles on the way to LA-LFP battery conversion. It is possible to solve these without taking risks. You can use all the devices used for LA batteries to charge your batteries. At what voltage do LFP batteries isolate themselves when they are full? This is the reference point. Set the alternator charge cut-off voltage below this. 0.2-0.4V. Make sure that the bms is supported by an active balancer for LFP cell balance and that there is Bluetooth communication to be able to follow the cell voltages of LFP batteries. Precise voltage balance of LFP cells is important, but checking every 2 weeks is sufficient. It is not possible to try to establish LFP battery cell balance with an alternator, you can do this with a solar energy charge controller. If the shore charge can be adjusted under the bms Hvcutoff, just like the alternator, this is a good thing, but it is not a must-have feature. Because the Hvcutoff event that will occur during shore charge does not cause a problem since there are no risks that you encounter during charging with the alternator.
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Old 20-01-2025, 02:48   #5
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

Hi,

I have 2*280A eco worthy my house bank and work very fine.

To day eco worthy have blue thoot if you like this. My batery not have and i am not worry balance, every think if i like charge baterys full, baterys take in 14,6V and if balacing is not good this is not posibble.

NBs
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Old 31-01-2025, 00:42   #6
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Hi,

I have 2*280A eco worthy my house bank and work very fine.

To day eco worthy have blue thoot if you like this. My batery not have and i am not worry balance, every think if i like charge baterys full, baterys take in 14,6V and if balacing is not good this is not posibble.

NBs
balance may be good today but you have no idea of the quality of those cells. trouble could be around the corner. from what i have seen, Ecoworthy spot weld their cells together. You have little opportunity to replace cells with these batteries should you have a problem
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Old 31-01-2025, 04:54   #7
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Originally Posted by Wandering1 View Post
If those batteries have full Bluetooth interface then fine. If not, find some that have it. If you want to see how frequent these style of batteries cause problems, have a look at Will Prowse website. There are better solutions for marine batteries in my opinion
I agree having bluetooth with access to each cell is helpful. Makes it more interesting. But to refer to Will Prowse's website for evidence of failure frequency completely ignores tests of eg LiTime batteries (by the same chap) which put these batteries in a very good light indeed or the failure frequency within the CF community. I don't think I have heard on CF yet from anyone having a HV shutdown due to imbalanced cells. And there are enough outspoken people on here to make themselves very audible should they wish.

I really think that most boats people sail on have much bigger and more serious potential failure points than a battery from a reasonable manufacturer getting out of balance and shutting down.
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Old 31-01-2025, 05:24   #8
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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I agree having bluetooth with access to each cell is helpful. Makes it more interesting. But to refer to Will Prowse's website for evidence of failure frequency completely ignores tests of eg LiTime batteries (by the same chap) which put these batteries in a very good light indeed or the failure frequency within the CF community. I don't think I have heard on CF yet from anyone having a HV shutdown due to imbalanced cells. And there are enough outspoken people on here to make themselves very audible should they wish.

I really think that most boats people sail on have much bigger and more serious potential failure points than a battery from a reasonable manufacturer getting out of balance and shutting down.
If you look on Will Prowse forum, you will see lots of problems associated with cheap 'drop in batteries' in the marine section. Complete loss of power would be up there as a serious problem in my view. In the scale of boat ownership, why save a few £$€ on cheap batteries
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Old 31-01-2025, 05:51   #9
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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If you look on Will Prowse forum, you will see lots of problems associated with cheap 'drop in batteries' in the marine section. Complete loss of power would be up there as a serious problem in my view. In the scale of boat ownership, why save a few £$€ on cheap batteries
Again, I agree that cheap carries risks, but there are not so cheap batteries out there without Bluetooth which I believe 'do the trick'. Having said this, probably Bluetooth will become fairly standard anyway going forward so might as well get the Bluetooth enabled batteries. One thing I would check though is that you really do get access to individual cell voltages which I believe is not always the case.
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Old 31-01-2025, 05:58   #10
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

Just curious if you have checked with your insurance carrier?


I recently was listening to a marine insurance expert giving an update on insuring boats for offshore and island travel, as well as domestic US, and he raised a big red flag about lithium batteries disqualify boats for coverage. Some carriers require special lithium certifications for the installers.
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Old 31-01-2025, 06:02   #11
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Originally Posted by HeinSdL View Post
Again, I agree that cheap carries risks, but there are not so cheap batteries out there without Bluetooth which I believe 'do the trick'. Having said this, probably Bluetooth will become fairly standard anyway going forward so might as well get the Bluetooth enabled batteries. One thing I would check though is that you really do get access to individual cell voltages which I believe is not always the case.
it is worth considering building your own batteries. I purchased grade A cells and a JK BMS that gives full bluetooth access. no risk of dodgy quality inside a battery case you have no control over. you can test high and low temperature sensors, you get active balancing, full programming options on the bms settings to suit your charging scenario and how you use the batteries.
you can have top quality batteries for the price of the cheapest and nastiest Chinese junk battery.
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Old 31-01-2025, 06:40   #12
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Just curious if you have checked with your insurance carrier?


I recently was listening to a marine insurance expert giving an update on insuring boats for offshore and island travel, as well as domestic US, and he raised a big red flag about lithium batteries disqualify boats for coverage. Some carriers require special lithium certifications for the installers.
Expert? Are you sure? I spoke to the CEO of the International Institute for Marine Surveyors and he admitted that his members didn't understand lithium. Surveyors are vaguely technical. how do you expect pen pushers in insurance to understand the risks? in the last 18 months 70 boats have had fires associated with lithium. Guess what. None of them were lifePO4 technology. They are all super yacht toys. E foils, scooters, drones, etc.

If your insurer tells you lithium is a no no, change insurer. I am insured with Pantenius. Self build batteries. No problem. But then again, we are European where insurance is legally obliged to be fair and reasonable
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Old 31-01-2025, 14:07   #13
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Expert? Are you sure? I spoke to the CEO of the International Institute for Marine Surveyors and he admitted that his members didn't understand lithium. Surveyors are vaguely technical. how do you expect pen pushers in insurance to understand the risks? in the last 18 months 70 boats have had fires associated with lithium. Guess what. None of them were lifePO4 technology. They are all super yacht toys. E foils, scooters, drones, etc.

If your insurer tells you lithium is a no no, change insurer. I am insured with Pantenius. Self build batteries. No problem. But then again, we are European where insurance is legally obliged to be fair and reasonable
Well, he brokers most the major marine-oriented carriers handling US yachts. It's how he makes his living. Just raising the issue for this OP, since he reported it as a concern. It would be a shame to spend all that money on lithium and not be able to get coverage.

LiFePO4 is of course the only way to go, regardless of insurance considerations. Whether the "pen pushers" in the insurance carriers are sufficiently versed in its benefits is probably changing over time.

BTW, Glad to hear it's going well for you in Europe. If you need help training your lawyers and judges in the international sport of frivolous litigation, just let us know. We're your allies and here to help, and always looking for something we can export.
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Old 01-02-2025, 22:34   #14
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Originally Posted by HeinSdL View Post
I agree having bluetooth with access to each cell is helpful. Makes it more interesting. But to refer to Will Prowse's website for evidence of failure frequency completely ignores tests of eg LiTime batteries (by the same chap) which put these batteries in a very good light indeed or the failure frequency within the CF community. I don't think I have heard on CF yet from anyone having a HV shutdown due to imbalanced cells. And there are enough outspoken people on here to make themselves very audible should they wish.

I really think that most boats people sail on have much bigger and more serious potential failure points than a battery from a reasonable manufacturer getting out of balance and shutting down.
Nearly nobody writes that here as they don't wanna show they made mistakes or bought the wrong batteries.

I know many and I rescued already a lot drop ins from imbalance and soon to be death. That happens if they follow
A) the preaching of the parameter game to put them at 13.8V absorption but their balancer needs 14.4V or even 14.6V to do it's job and it's chinese surprise boxes without you been able to see the cell values. And then suddenly one day the battery shuts down at 13.5V as its has a 200-300mV deviation as it never got a proper top balance and the small passive balancer can not do it's job as it never charged high enough. As you have no communication you cannot see the imbalances and only experience them when it's nearly to late.

B)or start suddenly to swell as cells continuesly overcharged by mostly to high and too long absorption times as they treat them like their lead acid before that need to be always full.

I highly recommend the eel-kit as that contains all you need to build a top notch drop in battery that you just need to put together yourself and get the cells you prefer from eel or from other good reputable sources like www.nkon.nl.
www.eelbattery.com
With grade A cells like the 314AH EVE from eel or knon you get for 600Euro a battery that's on the level of a 300AH Epoch or liontronics for 3 times the amount but you can open and access the cells or BMS anytime you need to. You always get full communication with the JK-BMS used.
Much better then a 280AH li-time, powerqueen or ecoworthy which have a)low quality BMS b)mostly no or bad communication c) low quality cells d)cannot open to access cells e) only a weak and low power passive balancing. You get what you pay for and you pay for their marketing, their commercials, their sales teams, their licensing fees...calculate 50% of the sales price for that and other 50% for the hardware like cells,BMS...that 50% you safe with a bulletproof eel-kit.
And if you build it, which everybody can who does it's own engine maintenance, then you also know whats inside your battery and how it works.
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Old 01-02-2025, 23:12   #15
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Re: Thinking of LifePo4 and have Mastervolt kit already

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Originally Posted by Wandering1 View Post
Expert? Are you sure? I spoke to the CEO of the International Institute for Marine Surveyors and he admitted that his members didn't understand lithium. Surveyors are vaguely technical. how do you expect pen pushers in insurance to understand the risks? in the last 18 months 70 boats have had fires associated with lithium. Guess what. None of them were lifePO4 technology. They are all super yacht toys. E foils, scooters, drones, etc.

If your insurer tells you lithium is a no no, change insurer. I am insured with Pantenius. Self build batteries. No problem. But then again, we are European where insurance is legally obliged to be fair and reasonable
Well that fair and reasonable is gone in europe since covid too. The new Pantenius contracts are so bad with so many tricky exclusions in the fine print that even a marine lawyer cannot tell you what's really insured anymore.

Did you tell Pantenieus about your DIY battery a got their written approval. It's a major change in your electric system and you need to inform them about any big change and ask for approval. If you don't it's not insured or they deny coverage afterwards, their claims director Linke is a real shark and uses all dirty tricks to deny payments. Especially after Allianz speciality pulled out of the complete Caribbean coverage of Pantenius and Pantaenius I signing that risk themselves.
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