Switching to Lithium

[Flipz1]

Would you believe - last week I was talking about insuring a new boat and I asked about Li batteries. He said that I would NOT be covered if I used Li batteries and then he sighted (would you believe), the MV Conception dive boat

[donradcliffe]

Two years later, the MV Conception fire was concluded to start in a waste basket. Insurance is a scam anyways.

[jlodolce]

I suggest you discuss this with your insurance agent or review with a reputable insurance company. Whoever told you this is misinformed. Perhaps you already know that the LiPO4 batteries commonly installed in new and older boats are different than the cobalt based Lithium ion batteries used in cars, scooters, bikes, and electronic devices. Lithium ion batteries are well known which have been the potential for fire while charging. LiPO4 batteries are thermal stable and do not have this potential if installed properly.

The MV conception disaster was not caused by lithium batteries, although there was initially concern that lithium powered electronic devices being charged on board may have been a cause, but was to my knowledge was subsequently determined to be unrelated. I have read no reports that a lithium house bank caused the fire.

The key to installation is to be sure that the charging systems (dockside and on board) are properly matched with LiPO4 batteries so they do not overcharge. You cannot simply replace lead acid/AGM batteries with LiPO4 using the lead acid/AGM charging system. I had them professionally installed. You can do it yourself, but you really need to study it carefully and review it with someone very knowledgeable.

I started this thread 3 years ago. I just finished my 3rd year with this system. I have a Freedom 40/40 and enjoy extended anchoring. I installed 3 200ah Victron batteries for my house system paired with a new dockside charging and a new 250 amp alternator. LiPO4 batteries cannot be used as starter battery, therefore I installed an AGM starter battery. One has to build in an inverter to charge the AGM and Li using the same charging system. It is complex and was expensive, but the results are impressive.

I previously changed all my lights to LED. I have a 14 cu foot refrig and freezer which was originally run by a compressor which used a lot of power. About 10 years ago I changed that to a frigoboat system which works more like a heat pump using a thru hull heat exchange fitting, which dramatically reduced my energy use. Even then, with the previous bank of three 200 ah AGM house batteries I could only anchor for 2 days max without charging when the batteries were new. By the time the batteries were 3 years old, I had to charge every day. They need to be replaced relatively frequently. As you may know, the AGM batteries' voltage drops linearly. By the time they got to 80% the frig shut off. So I only had ~120 ah of useful power.

The LiPO4 batteries are great. They maintain constant voltage down to 5%, which means I have >500 ah to use. They do not age like the AGMs and after 3 years are working like new. They last 10-15 years, are not affected by the winter. I disconnect the negative cable in the winter and in the spring they are still fully charged, eliminating the need to plug them in every month like AGM batteries. I can probably go 4-5 days at anchor without charging, although I generally run the engine for an hour every 2 days to keep the charge >50% and to make some hot water. The 250 amp alternator replenishes the charge quickly (much more quickly than the dockside charger).

I start the engine prior to hauling anchor and by the time we have the sails up, the batteries have already gained good charge. I can sail all day without any concerns about the electronics and frig running the batteries down.

Solar panels are relatively inexpensive and can be paired with this system very easily, and would be ideal for extended cruising, which I do not do.

Overall, I am very pleased with the sytem.

[Cheechako]

It just seems to me to go to Lithium in a situation where a fire = death (at sea) just to save weight and spend far more $ is illogical.
But that's just me.
KISS

Do any of these apply to a boat?

Typical triggers for lithium battery fires include:
Rough handling – jostling and drops;
Short circuits – from damage, improper storage, or metal dust from manufacturing standards;
Overheating – high temperatures in cargo holds, on tarmacs, or at loading dock;
Humid and wet conditions – Rainwater (especially combined with salty air) can cause short circuits and lead to thermal runaway even if the battery has not been damaged;

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by jlodolce

the posts I see in this forum regarding lithium batteries are not recent. considering latest Li options and costs, I am opening a new thread.

I have 1995 Freedom 40/40 #16 on Lake Ontario:

I have to replace my batteries this year due to their age and not holding charge. This will be my third replacement in 15 summers with the boat. I have three house 4D AGM's (200Ah each x 3 = 600Ah) and a group 31 AGM starter battery and monitor them with a Victron. We commonly anchor several days at a time. I understand I can safely let them go down to 50% charge, but generally don't let them drift down past 75%. I don't like starting a voyage with depleted batteries, since I do not have either solar or wind generators.

All my cabin lights are LED. About 10 years ago, I replaced my refrigeration to a Frigi-boat system, using a brass through hull fitting for heat exchange, one of the best improvements I ever made to the boat. I can stay at anchor for about 3 days before I get anxious to recharge, while in reality, I tend to recharge and replenish hot water using a portable Honda EU2200i generator for about 45 minutes once per day.

I have often considered changing from AGM to Lithium ion, because they are supposed to last 10 years, are about 50lb each compared to 120lb, can be discharged to 80% without damage, and they are supposed to recharge 6 times faster. The expense always held me back, but I see online that I can now buy 200Ah 4D size lithium ion batteries for about the same price as AGM's ($600-$800 each).

I have a 4 year old high capacity Electromax programmable alternator/regulator and a 5 year old Mastervolt 40 amp 12/40-3 44210200 dockside charger which I believe are both programmable for Lithium ion batteries.

My greatest fear is fire. I read that the new Li batteries have built in regulators to prevent them from being over charged, and that properly setting the alternator and dockside charger to Li specs should also prevent this. If I make the change, I will have my boatyard mechanic do the work, since they installed the alternator and dockside charger, and would be responsible for ensuring that they are programmed correctly.

Does anyone have any thoughts to offer me on this?

LifePO4 is great but before you make the switch I think you have to figure out what you are doing that is killing your battery bank so quickly! For comparison my bank is 4 GC2 batts for 440ah - 220 useable (MAX) traditional FLA batteries running a frigoboat refrigeration system all LED lighting and generally only charge with solar and 120amp alternator. I don't plug in even when at my home dock. My current batteries are 8 years old and showing little signs of degrading. I suspect you've got something going on in your system that might be more deeply discharging than you expect. your batteries should be lasting longer than 5 years. The way I'm going I think I'll switch mine at the 10 year mark. at that point I don't think LifePO4 would have "paid off" for me.

remember when you switch you have to look at your whole system and what you are doing for both charging and discharging and modify appropriately.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

It just seems to me to go to Lithium in a situation where a fire = death (at sea) just to save weight and spend far more $ is illogical.
But that's just me.
KISS

Do any of these apply to a boat?

Typical triggers for lithium battery fires include:
Rough handling – jostling and drops;
Short circuits – from damage, improper storage, or metal dust from manufacturing standards;
Overheating – high temperatures in cargo holds, on tarmacs, or at loading dock;
Humid and wet conditions – Rainwater (especially combined with salty air) can cause short circuits and lead to thermal runaway even if the battery has not been damaged;

None of those apply to Lithium Iron Phosphate. Handle them rough. Smash them with a hammer. Break them open with an axe. Short circuit. Flood your boat and submerge them. Even through them into an already burning fire. None of that will cause an LFP to go into thermal runaway.

I don't understand why that is so hard to get people to realize. All of the information you read about "Lithium" batteries are a different battery than LFP. The threat of fire just is not applicable.

LFP are also CHEAPER than AGM.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by wholybee

None of those apply to Lithium Iron Phosphate. Handle them rough. Smash them with a hammer. Break them open with an axe. Short circuit. Flood your boat and submerge them. Even through them into an already burning fire. None of that will cause an LFP to go into thermal runaway.

I don't understand why that is so hard to get people to realize. All of the information you read about "Lithium" batteries are a different battery than LFP. The threat of fire just is not applicable.

LFP are also CHEAPER than AGM.

truly they should have just called them Iron batteries to avoiding the never ending confusion

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

It just seems to me to go to Lithium in a situation where a fire = death (at sea) just to save weight and spend far more $ is illogical.
But that's just me.
KISS

Do any of these apply to a boat?

Typical triggers for lithium battery fires include:
Rough handling – jostling and drops;
Short circuits – from damage, improper storage, or metal dust from manufacturing standards;
Overheating – high temperatures in cargo holds, on tarmacs, or at loading dock;
Humid and wet conditions – Rainwater (especially combined with salty air) can cause short circuits and lead to thermal runaway even if the battery has not been damaged;

These factors only apply to your phone, tablet, laptop, electric scooters, rechargeable tools, electric toothbrush and anything you charge up in your boat or at home

doesn’t apply to the batteries we use as house batteries

[PippaB]

In addition to "not all 'lithium' batteries are the same" (and so you cannot make categorical statements about 'lithium' batteries):

Originally Posted by Cheechako

....

Typical triggers for lithium lead-acid battery fires explosions include:
Rough handling – jostling and drops;
Short circuits – from damage, improper storage, or metal dust from manufacturing standards;
Overheating – high temperatures in cargo holds, on tarmacs, or at loading dock;
Humid and wet conditions – Rainwater (especially combined with salty air) can cause short circuits and lead to thermal runaway even if the battery has not been damaged;
Overcharging
Poor ventilation

Understanding Lead Acid Battery Explosions

Battery Blow-Ups and Meltdowns

Flooded lead-acid batteries can and do explode:
The fact that these types of batteries have lead plates dangling in a bath of acid that’s sloshing around is bad enough, but with them being free to vent explosive and corrosive gasses to their surroundings, it is inviting disaster should things get out of whack.

AGM batteries can and do go into thermal runaway at relatively low temperatures:...

Now, if the battery is in an exceptionally hot environment, and/or if it is squeezed in between other batteries with no room to breathe, this can be a recipe for disaster. The crucial fact to consider here is that the warmer these batteries become, the higher the charge current they can accept. And the higher the charge current, the warmer/hotter the battery gets. So up and up goes the charge current, and up and up goes the temperature, and so on.

If the battery case cannot dissipate the heat at the same or greater rate than it is being generated, the heat and internal pressure will build until the valves open. When that happens, the vents will be releasing some of the same potentially explosive gas emitted by the flooded battery. Once enough gas has vented that the matting starts to dry, it becomes easier for the heat-generating exothermic oxygen-absorbing reaction to take place, further elevating the temperature and allowing for even higher charge currents. At this point, thermal runaway is well and truly under way..

[jlodolce]

Cheechako: there is no risk of fire from LiPO4 batteries. They are much different than Lithium ion batteries used in EVs and electronic devices

PCMM: perhaps you are correct, but I went through 3 sets of batteries over ~14 years before switching. I carefully assessed each part of my boat's electricity consumption by switching everything off except for one item at a time and monitoring amp hour consumption, using a Victron monitor, and nothing was awry. One set of batteries did go bad when 2 winters in a row the battery switches were set wrong and the AGMs bled down to zero. But that was the last straw that broke the camel's back that made me switch. That is not healthy for batteries. I doubt Whitby weather is much different than Sackets Harbor. Since then, there has been no sign of leakage from my system, and believe me, I monitor it carefully. They are close to fully charged in the spring without plugging in.

But the Li batteries will pay for themselves over time in addition to have great advantages.

I actually had a close call with the last set of AGM's that almost caught fire from dockside charging because they were bad and since they would not fully charge, the charger did not shut off. I was away for a couple weeks and luckily my boatyard smelled something and switched everything off.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by jlodolce

You cannot simply replace lead acid/AGM batteries with LiPO4 using the lead acid/AGM charging system. I had them professionally installed. You can do it yourself, but you really need to study it carefully and review it with someone very knowledgeable.

LiPO4 batteries cannot be used as starter battery, therefore I installed an AGM starter battery.

One has to build in an inverter to charge the AGM and Li using the same charging system. It is complex and was expensive, but the results are impressive.

None of those statements are true. We have discussed each of them previously at length on CF.

Originally Posted by jlodolce

Overall, I am very pleased with the sytem.

Excellent , certainly a game changer when we switched.

Pete

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jlodolce

I suggest you discuss this with your insurance agent or review with a reputable insurance company. Whoever told you this is misinformed. Perhaps you already know that the LiPO4 batteries commonly installed in new and older boats are different than the cobalt based Lithium ion batteries used in cars, scooters, bikes, and electronic devices. Lithium ion batteries are well known which have been the potential for fire while charging. LiPO4 batteries are thermal stable and do not have this potential if installed properly.


The key to installation is to be sure that the charging systems (dockside and on board) are properly matched with LiPO4 batteries so they do not overcharge. You cannot simply replace lead acid/AGM batteries with LiPO4 using the lead acid/AGM charging system. I had them professionally installed. You can do it yourself, but you really need to study it carefully and review it with someone very knowledgeable.

I started this thread 3 years ago. I just finished my 3rd year with this system. I have a Freedom 40/40 and enjoy extended anchoring. I installed 3 200ah Victron batteries for my house system paired with a new dockside charging and a new 250 amp alternator. LiPO4 batteries cannot be used as starter battery, therefore I installed an AGM starter battery. One has to build in an inverter to charge the AGM and Li using the same charging system. It is complex and was expensive, but the results are impressive.

I previously changed all my lights to LED. I have a 14 cu foot refrig and freezer which was originally run by a compressor which used a lot of power. About 10 years ago I changed that to a frigoboat system which works more like a heat pump using a thru hull heat exchange fitting, which dramatically reduced my energy use. Even then, with the previous bank of three 200 ah AGM house batteries I could only anchor for 2 days max without charging when the batteries were new. By the time the batteries were 3 years old, I had to charge every day. They need to be replaced relatively frequently. As you may know, the AGM batteries' voltage drops linearly. By the time they got to 80% the frig shut off. So I only had ~120 ah of useful power.

The LiPO4 batteries are great. They maintain constant voltage down to 5%, which means I have >500 ah to use. They do not age like the AGMs and after 3 years are working like new. They last 10-15 years, are not affected by the winter. I disconnect the negative cable in the winter and in the spring they are still fully charged, eliminating the need to plug them in every month like AGM batteries. I can probably go 4-5 days at anchor without charging, although I generally run the engine for an hour every 2 days to keep the charge >50% and to make some hot water. The 250 amp alternator replenishes the charge quickly (much more quickly than the dockside charger).

I start the engine prior to hauling anchor and by the time we have the sails up, the batteries have already gained good charge. I can sail all day without any concerns about the electronics and frig running the batteries down.

Solar panels are relatively inexpensive and can be paired with this system very easily, and would be ideal for extended cruising, which I do not do.

Overall, I am very pleased with the sytem.

Glad your overall happy however there're so many errors in your statement above .
Onboard Charging systems on most sailing vessels are via solar and or wind both of which that can be properly set to the appropriate settings. Easily.
Most shore chargers have settings that are appropriate for lifepo4.
As to alternator charging if stock likely easiest and cost effective would be the simple installation of a dc2dc charger set-to the lifepo4 appropriate settings.
If using larger alternator then an external regulator would be more appropriate.

Starting is quite easy to do with lifepo4 . And yes they do make them for the purpose of starting engines .
They are cheaper usable watt for watt than almost any lead based .
And when you look at life cycle. Even 3,000 cycles which means using the power that they have from full to 5% regardless of the number of days or charging cycles. That actually happen you are looking at close to 30 years before cycles are that high.
Forvexample my bank is 250ah at 12v. My usage is 40ah per day average which will then take 6 days to use the power equivalent of 1 cycle so 3,000 cycles = 18,000 days or 49 years . I know I won't live that long. But my bank will. My kids will enjoy my installation for many years .

[jlodolce]

Newhaul:

Onboard Charging systems on most sailing vessels are via solar and or wind both of which that can be properly set to the appropriate settings. Easily.
Most shore chargers have settings that are appropriate for lifepo4.

I did install a DC2DC

I do not see where I said anything about it being difficult to pain solar with Li. I said:

Solar panels are relatively inexpensive and can be paired with this system very easily, and would be ideal for extended cruising, which I do not do.

While most long range cruisers use solar, not all boats are long range cruisers. It is not correct that most sailing vessels have solar.

I also agree that Li batteries, while up front are more expensive, in the long run are less expensive because they last a very long time.



Pete:

While many newer charging systems can handle Li, most older charging systems. are often not compatible.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by jlodolce

Newhaul:

Pete:

While many newer charging systems can handle Li, most older charging systems. are often not compatible.

Which is why a DC>DC charger is the perfect solution for many. There is even a cheaper method using a long wire, popular on the UK canal boat scene.

Pete

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jlodolce

Newhaul:



I did install a DC2DC

I do not see where I said anything about it being difficult to pain solar with Li. I said:



While most long range cruisers use solar, not all boats are long range cruisers. It is not correct that most sailing vessels have solar.

I also agree that Li batteries, while up front are more expensive, in the long run are less expensive because they last a very long time.



Pete:

While many newer charging systems can handle Li, most older charging systems. are often not compatible.

Well I disagree . Most sailboats in my area that do sail for more than daysails and beer can races do even if just a single 50 watt flex panel they throw on deck.

As to shore chargers my 33 year old charger can charge just about every chemestry of rechargeable battery in the 12v bank size.
What do you consider older chargers?
I can even charge with my cheap car charger I bought from harbor freight. And do use it on my lifepo4 start battery on my tractor. ( same mitsubishi k2b engine as on my sailboat. )