Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
[QUOTE=Fuss;3794344]We are really starting to make progress here… here we have proof that starting your engine with lithium works with no BMS.
When I originally mentioned the Winston 12v start batteries, I was shot down.
All those comments stating that bypassing the BMS is such a huge problem……:.
Ok, so now the only thing outstanding is that I am experimenting with Lifepo4 280ah Eve cells that are not designed on any way, shape or form as engine start batteries.
Or do you all still want to go on about how dangerous it is to bypass the BMS.
Quote
Winston's 12V LiFeYPO4 batteries, made by Thundersky, have no BMS and no wires to access the 4 internal cells. The elements are manufactured simultaneously with a quality allowing no need for equalization between the elements if care is taken to charge them to at least 14.3V. You need an equalizer only if you install batteries in series to have 24V. Otherwise the characteristics and the robustness of these batteries which support almost everything mean that there is no need for a BMS. This avoids the risk of a blackout due to the BMS when sailing solo.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss
We are really starting to make progress here… here we have proof that starting your engine with lithium works with no BMS.
When I originally mentioned the Winston 12v start batteries, I was shot down.
All those comments stating that bypassing the BMS is such a huge problem……:.
Ok, so now the only thing outstanding is that I am experimenting with Lifepo4 280ah Eve cells that are not designed on any way, shape or form as engine start batteries.
Or do you all still want to go on about how dangerous it is to bypass the BMS.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
[QUOTE=Marc13;3794568]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss
We are really starting to make progress here… here we have proof that starting your engine with lithium works with no BMS.
When I originally mentioned the Winston 12v start batteries, I was shot down.
All those comments stating that bypassing the BMS is such a huge problem……:.
Ok, so now the only thing outstanding is that I am experimenting with Lifepo4 280ah Eve cells that are not designed on any way, shape or form as engine start batteries.
Or do you all still want to go on about how dangerous it is to bypass the BMS.
Quote
Winston's 12V LiFeYPO4 batteries, made by Thundersky, have no BMS and no wires to access the 4 internal cells. The elements are manufactured simultaneously with a quality allowing no need for equalization between the elements if care is taken to charge them to at least 14.3V. You need an equalizer only if you install batteries in series to hakve 24V. Otherwise the characteristics and the robustness of these batteries which support almost everything mean that there is no need for a BMS. This avoids the risk of a blackout due to the BMS when sailing solo.
Sorry but I disagree, what you describe leaving BMS away can only be done with LTO up to 6cells in series as they survive being discharged to 0V and even a broken alternatorregulator putting 18V into cell donˋt destroy them. Do this with the Winston cells you have an they are dead. Your Winston are extremly robust but they are failures in your surrounding equipment that even they get damage when a BMS is not preventing them from these.
I ran LFP also as starter without BMS over 20years ago when no documentation was available and we just figured by testing and breaking.
You have a single LFP that does both and when you use it you have full control over it as it’s simple system, I get this but when you are sleeping you don‘t. Yes you can avoid a BMS and have a Victron BMV Monitor your bank and give alarm and even disconnect it but that does it on total voltage and not cell level.
A DIY bank you are not sitting in the dark if the BMS fails if you chose the right BMS, then BMS gives you added security but you can simply bypass it in case it fails.Have a look at electrodacus BMS for example. That’s on of the reasons I would never buy drop ins as you have no control over the BMS and no access to the single cell to eg troubleshoot.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Current LFP batteries are very different from each other.
Of course, I confirm that it is imperative to have a BMS when the manufacturer indicates in the battery manual that the charging and discharging current must be limited or cut off depending on the temperature so as not to damage the batteries or risk a fire. You really need to read the manufacturer's documentation of the battery element and not that of the dealer or assembler, even if it is a reputable marineelectronics manufacturer. This is even more important if the batteries are not UN38.3 certified and then present a risk of fire and explosion. It is essential to read the instructions from the manufacturer of the elements before installing them on a boat because it can be read that certain batteries are incapable, without damage, of starting an engine or powering a windlass at +5°C. Others are not waterproof and can catch fire when submerged. Normal operating voltage ranges also differ widely. With some so-called UN38.3 batteries, I had a bad surprise when I read the report of the certification body, posted online by the manufacturer. In reality, these batteries had not passed or satisfied part of the tests. With other batteries, you run the risk of unexpected cuts by the BMS. Electrical blackouts can be dangerous on a boat, however, especially on autopilot. With bad luck, the BMS load cut-off can even damage the alternator with the overvoltage induced in the stator during the sudden load current cut-off. The alternator diodes are not dimensioned in voltage to withstand this transient. To conclude, the LFP batteries currently on the market have really very different characteristics. Some expensive batteries are not really suitable for a boat. The instructions of the manufacturers of their elements indicate a risk of fire or explosion under certain conditions. It is therefore essential to know the origin of the elements of its LFP and to be certain that these elements are waterproof and correspond to the conditions of use of the boat. It is also not silly to buy batteries or LFP elements manufactured by factories supplying large reputable manufacturers in the energy, automotive or aviation industries. We are then certain that the batteries have actually undergone numerous and costly certification tests.
When I equipped my boat 12 years ago, I wanted robust and intrinsically safe LFP batteries. I then only found WINSTON 12V LiFeYPO4 batteries, made by Thundersky, which did not need a BMS and could start the engine in a very wide temperature range. They only have 2 terminals and no possibility of connecting a BMS to the different elements. It is only if several are installed in series that an equalizer is required between the 12V batteries. These Winston batteries are also guaranteed to never catch fire or explode. They have passed all the UN38.3 certification tests, including one for short-circuit and another for overload at 20V.
Today, my 12V Winston batteries are still like new in use.
I'm not ready to reinstall a fragile lead battery to start my engine. But I will never reinstall LFPs without having carefully checked in their manufacturer's documentation that they are really suitable for their use on my boat.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Do you use your Winston only to start the engine or as hybrid start house.
I am quite sure the UN listing and BMS free certification is only when used as starter.
The above link That’s what I can find as 12V Winston and specs eg states clearly that charged above 15v they are dead. Means if your alternator regulator fails your battery is Toast. It won‘t catch fire or gas out though.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
I only have one set of batteries for the engine and the utilities.
These are 12V LiFeYPO4 90Ah batteries mounted in parallel. They are manufactured by Thundersky-Winston which puts the manual and many documents for download on the Thundersky-Winston site. The Thundersky operator's manual indicates a normal voltage range, ie without any abnormal aging, of 11 to 16V and an operating temperature range of -45°C to +85°C. The vehicle battery datasheet recommends a charging voltage of 14.5V, which is the regulator setting voltage of most 12V alternators. But the curves in this datasheet show that the battery is still charged by Thundersky up to 16V during cycling tests.
The voltages of 14.5V from the alternator and the charger of my boat are fine. I have enough margin in case the alternator regulator fails. The Winstons automatically stop absorbing current when fully charged. They can remain at 14.5V indefinitely. No electronics are needed to cut the load or switch to floating.
After 12 years of use, my Winston have retained their characteristics. They no longer absorb any current once charged. I'm just careful never to discharge them below 12V, which is about 10% charge. However, I know that if one day I have a charging problem, I can still safely go down to 11V and exceptionally to 10.5V.
It is obvious that my very simple installation goes against what can be read in the documents of certain marine electronics sellers. But as I said before, there are so many differences between commercial LFPs that electronics manufacturers are forced to be very careful and mention the precautions to be taken with the battery part. This is all the more true since the batteries that these electronics engineers assemble and sell, or have sold, sometimes require a lot of precautions to avoid being damaged. One can currently read in the documentation of LFP batteries of a major brand that these must be electrically heated before use when it is cold. How do you leave your anchorage in cold weather without a generator? But one should not generalize the disadvantages of certain LFPs or claim that all LFPs are safe. An IMOCA from the last Vendée Globe caught fire and quickly sank because of its leaky LFP batteries. My son-in-law also experienced a major brand battery fire aboard a VOR70 while racing. He was, luckily, trained to handle a battery fire quickly as a merchant navy officer.
It's true that my batteries have the disadvantage of not being connected to my phone. But is this a disadvantage when you are sure to have safe batteries that are more efficient in all respects than the best existing lead batteries? What is the interest of connected batteries when their self-discharge is so low that I always find my batteries with the voltage I had when leaving the boat, even after several months? The self-discharge is less than 1% per month regardless of the SOC. This is far from being the case for all LFPs and lead-acid batteries when you read the datasheets and instructions for other batteries.
I consider that electrical energy is vital on my boat. Currently , most BMS and electrical energy management equipment used on boats do not have the certifications required in automotive, industry and for the VHF of our boats. Knowing this, I preferred to have batteries intrinsically safe and robust which allow me to simplify and make the electrical circuit of the boat more reliable.
The link to the datasheet of the batteries LiFeYPO4 12V 90Ah for use on thermal vehicles is the following: 20220519/1652928690700927.pdf
We have to wait for the end of the Thundersky-Winston patents and hope that other manufacturers will find other solutions by then to make LFPs more reliable. This will save us money and make our boats safer.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
I only have one set of batteries for the engine and the utilities.
These are 12V LiFeYPO4 90Ah batteries mounted in parallel. They are manufactured by Thundersky-Winston which puts the manual and many documents for download on the Thundersky-Winston site. The Thundersky operator's manual indicates a normal voltage range, ie without any abnormal aging, of 11 to 16V and an operating temperature range of -45°C to +85°C. The vehicle battery datasheet recommends a charging voltage of 14.5V, which is the regulator setting voltage of most 12V alternators. But the curves in this datasheet show that the battery is still charged by Thundersky up to 16V during cycling tests.
The voltages of 14.5V from the alternator and the charger of my boat are fine. I have enough margin in case the alternator regulator fails. The Winstons automatically stop absorbing current when fully charged. They can remain at 14.5V indefinitely. No electronics are needed to cut the load or switch to floating.
After 12 years of use, my Winston have retained their characteristics. They no longer absorb any current once charged. I'm just careful never to discharge them below 12V, which is about 10% charge. However, I know that if one day I have a charging problem, I can still safely go down to 11V and exceptionally to 10.5V.
It is obvious that my very simple installation goes against what can be read in the documents of certain marine electronics sellers. But as I said before, there are so many differences between commercial LFPs that electronics manufacturers are forced to be very careful and mention the precautions to be taken with the battery part. This is all the more true since the batteries that these electronics engineers assemble and sell, or have sold, sometimes require a lot of precautions to avoid being damaged. One can currently read in the documentation of LFP batteries of a major brand that these must be electrically heated before use when it is cold. How do you leave your anchorage in cold weather without a generator? But one should not generalize the disadvantages of certain LFPs or claim that all LFPs are safe. An IMOCA from the last Vendée Globe caught fire and quickly sank because of its leaky LFP batteries. My son-in-law also experienced a major brand battery fire aboard a VOR70 while racing. He was, luckily, trained to handle a battery fire quickly as a merchant navy officer.
It's true that my batteries have the disadvantage of not being connected to my phone. But is this a disadvantage when you are sure to have safe batteries that are more efficient in all respects than the best existing lead batteries? What is the interest of connected batteries when their self-discharge is so low that I always find my batteries with the voltage I had when I left the boat, even after several months? The self-discharge is less than 1% per month regardless of the SOC. This is far from being the case for all LFPs and lead-acid batteries when you read the data sheets and notices for the other batteries.
I consider that electrical energy is vital on my boat. Currently , most BMS and electrical energy management equipment used on boats do not have the certifications required in automotive, industry and for the VHF of our boats. Knowing this, I preferred to have batteries intrinsically safe and robust which allow me to simplify and make the electrical circuit of the boat more reliable.
We have to wait for the end of the Thundersky-Winston patents and hope that other manufacturers will find other solutions to make LFPs more reliable. This will save us money and make our boats safer.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc13
One can currently read in the documentation of LFP batteries of a major brand that these must be electrically heated before use when it is cold. How do you leave your anchorage in cold weather without a generator?
Yeah that is not correct. No LFP has issues being used (discharged) when cold. They shouldn't be CHARGED when internal temps are below 0C.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet
What is great news? You can use LFP since 20 years for starting the engine, if(!)the right cells and BMS that can handle the start surge.
The OP using 4 cells without BMS that are not made for this kind of application and overload the cells.
It seems the takeaway is that with a smart charging source there's no need for a BMS, so even if the LFP is not rated they will still outperform LA due to the very low actual uses a start battery does over its lifetime. Seems like a win win.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker
My $105.00 group 27 lead acid starting battery is entering it's 9th yr.
I got 8yrs out of my four 6v lead acid house bank and replaced them with like last year. I see no reason for me to change
Yep, Boatpoker is just about to buy another lead acid starter battery and spend the next 9 years filling with water and keeping it constantly fully charged.
Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuss
Yep, Boatpoker is just about to buy another lead acid starter battery and spend the next 9 years filling with water and keeping it constantly fully charged.
Heart breaking, soul grinding labour 5 minutes a weak is devastating LOL.
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Re: Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Statistical
Yeah that is not correct. No LFP has issues being used (discharged) when cold. They shouldn't be CHARGED when internal temps are below 0C.
There are several manufacturers of LFP batteries that clearly state that their cells should not be discharged at full current. If you look carefully, you will find them resold by major brands under their own names. I am enclosing an extract from the very clear and precise ETC manufacturer's instructions.
ETC batteries are suitable for domestic use in a moderate temperature room. They are clearly unsuitable on a boat even for service batteries. Above all, I wanted to make it understood that commercial LFPs have very significant differences and that it is absolutely necessary to know the manufacturer of the elements whose instructions must be read to know if those which interest us are adapted to our use or not. A battery designed for a certain application will not necessarily be suitable for our boats. This sometimes escapes some sellers on the internet and also a lot of buyers. By looking, we can see that the price does not prejudge much. You really need to find out who made the items being sold and check the manufacturer's specifications.
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