Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

The motor is 6 liter and won’t start on 1 12v lead acid, but there is no lala Land as it’s already done and working. Look at the advantages, for me I’ve got 24 of these cells onboard, when my start battery breaks, I guess I just go and get one of the other cells and use as a replacement….
The alternative is to have 2 big, so old fashioned, emotionally dependant , low capacity batteries that demand that I keep them fully charged at all times. They also demand that I only give them one task. They only want to start the motor and run the motor instruments. If I was to give them other tasks they would complain and use this as an excuse for not starting at some later very inconvenient time.
Thats the problem, they only want to start the motor and they have successfully been convincing us that this is all they have to do, just sit there and do nothing the rest of the time!!. Well these days are over. Lifepo4 is here to upstage these lazy batteries from the past.

Wrong Lifepo4 is in no way upstage starter batteries...LTO or if you wann have more unsecured Li-On or LMNC can deliver very high currents needed for starter.
Starting a 6l engine with 280AH EVE is destroying them quickly, again they are storage cycle batteries and no starter. You can use them in your case when 3p4s, everything less will reduce lifespan dramatically, expect you have a 3,5kw starter that will kill them in 1p4s in under a year.
I used LFP also as starters in cars for >20years and know what I am talking about in real life...

use all 24 as hybrid and put cutoff LVC at 3V (engine and windlass directly connected only with a breaker) and you can start your engine anytime and the bank won‘t suffer...if you wanna do it perfect put an isolated DC2DC Converter 12 to 12V like Victron Orion and run all your navigation equipment isolated from any spikes due to eg starter and you can also compensate the voltage drop.

[Fuss]

thanks, it’s been a good thread so far.
Ok, dead in under a year, this will be interesting, I hope that are not but for this we have to wait…I’ve done it now, so far, I notice no problem other than that they seen to go a bit out of balance…I will report back in a year.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Fuss

The motor is 6 liter and won’t start on 1 12v lead acid,

Lots of 6L engines WILL start on a single 12V lead-acid battery. The battery just needs enough cranking amps to satisfy the engine maker's specs.

So a G24 might not be enough, but a G27 might... or a G31... or a 4D... or an 8D... and within each BCI Group category, batteries with appropriate cranking amp ratings.

-Chris

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Lots of 6L engines WILL start on a single 12V lead-acid battery. The battery just needs enough cranking amps to satisfy the engine maker's specs.

So a G24 might not be enough, but a G27 might... or a G31... or a 4D... or an 8D... and within each BCI Group category, batteries with appropriate cranking amp ratings.

-Chris

It needs 1400cca ….it does not start on one battery. The specs say two 900 cca batteries in parallel.

It does however start on one 12v lifepo4 280ah EVE battery made up of 4 cells.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Fuss

It needs 1400cca ….it does not start on one battery. The specs say two 900 cca batteries in parallel.

Interesting. Our 15L engines need 1350 CCA... and will start with 1150 CCA (known from PO's POS batteries).

Odyssey makes a single 8D AGM rated at 1450 CCA. East Penn/Deka makes a flooded/sealed 8D rated at 1425 CCA.

-Chris

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Fuss

It needs 1400cca ….it does not start on one battery. The specs say two 900 cca batteries in parallel.

Can you not tell us the actual make/model of your engine that requires such a large battery.
With different battery systems all kinds of issues can be solved if the engine is equipped with two alternators.
One for FLA start batts, one for the "whatever type" house batts.
Peace is possible without a lot of drama and expense with that set-up.

[shrspeedblade]

Simply because I've had a very similar question bouncing around in my head today, can anyone comment on the best way to keep my 2 Group 24 AGMs (only thing on the boat atm) as starter batteries but add a 12v 280ah EVE bank that I'd run the solar arch I'm building into and give me a lot more house capacity?

I'm still in the early musing/planning stage. If I ran the AGMs to position 1 on the battery switch and only used them with the motor (Yanmar 2qm20) running and switched to position 2 (the LiFePO4) when under sail would it protect the AGMs and the alternator from the lithium on the other circuit which wouldn't be subjected to the CCA draw?

Yes, you'd have to be very careful to switch over every time when starting/running the Yanmar.

[Senojev]

For whoever wanted to know what 6cylinder engine. Our Cummins 5.9 requires 1200 CCA and was spec’d with 2 Group 27 Lifeline starting batteries.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by shrspeedblade

Simply because I've had a very similar question bouncing around in my head today, can anyone comment on the best way to keep my 2 Group 24 AGMs (only thing on the boat atm) as starter batteries but add a 12v 280ah EVE bank that I'd run the solar arch I'm building into and give me a lot more house capacity?

I'm still in the early musing/planning stage. If I ran the AGMs to position 1 on the battery switch and only used them with the motor (Yanmar 2qm20) running and switched to position 2 (the LiFePO4) when under sail would it protect the AGMs and the alternator from the lithium on the other circuit which wouldn't be subjected to the CCA draw?

Yes, you'd have to be very careful to switch over every time when starting/running the Yanmar.

Easy, no switching required. The two Orions each connect one way so that one charges the start battery from solar and the other the house battery from the alternator.

[skipperpete]

And the old 6 cylinder ford Lehman was about 6 litres.
Fuss’s starter motor might be one of the old direct drive types, the newer geared types spin a 6 litre engine over with gusto on relatively small batteries. Trucks here in Australia are using a combination of lead acid batteries and a single super capacitor battery, seems to work for transport vehicles.

[bill good]

Originally Posted by Fuss

It’s 12v starting so 4 batteries. I never said it was 24v starting. It has no BMS, it doesn’t need one with this capacity as it’s big enough never to run into the knees.
10 years on your start batteries, I’d like to see that… I used to get 7 years with start batteries that were always fully charged and did one job, 10 years for most sailors is impossible.

Just be aware the cells with screw terminals are reject cells unsuitable for high discharge being sold off for solar.(low current ops). BMS is the safety requirement to prevent trouble. You might get away with this but you are running a risk!

[GILow]

I cannot begin to explain how happy I am that I don’t have a six litre boat engine.

I think my little 2.2 would start on a pack of double As. No need for LiFePO4.

The last engine was 24 volts. The batteries were 12 years old when I removed the engine, still working fine, no idea how much life they had left in them.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

It needs 1400cca ….it does not start on one battery. The specs say two 900 cca batteries in parallel.

It does however start on one 12v lifepo4 280ah EVE battery made up of 4 cells.

Holy moses thats 5C for the older type EVE 280AH which are rated 2C peak. You are massivly overloading them and risking an internal short which will be very dangerous as they could catch fire when that happens during cranking....
That they are out of balance is the first warning sign, no wonder with 5C load...what BMS are you running that can withstand 1400CCA? An active balncer with as high as possible amps is a must here which currents like this...the Neey does effectifly the most or the heltec 5A, forget 10A as thats does effectivly less then 5A one.
I think you will be see them much faster dead then a year...
A 3p6S with 35AH grade B LTO yinglong=105AH or 1800Apeak is the right starter battery for that monster, also they need the active balancer, i use 5A Heltec. A 2p6S is borderline and will work for about 10years.
My buddy has an 7l V8 corvette and uses 2p6S without any trouble since 3 years, he killed all other chemistries in under 6 month as the car has also a stereo wit 5500W :-)

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by bill good

Just be aware the cells with screw terminals are reject cells unsuitable for high discharge being sold off for solar.(low current ops). BMS is the safety requirement to prevent trouble. You might get away with this but you are running a risk!

This is false information. The cells are delivered with blank terminals from factory. The wholesaler then choses what connector he takes/sell the cells or if you order enough cells you can choose yours.
A friend of mine builds storage walls and get also EVE directly from factory. I chose Lishen as they had slightly better specs in 2020.
The rejected cells if matched properly in internal resitance have just less capacity but can do the same C ratings then Grade A.
But correct EVE280AH are storage cycle batteries that can 1C constant/2C peak but from experience (also my friend above who gets a container of them twice a month) used above 0.5C frequently degrade much faster.
The new welded 304AH are similar, just threshold is 1C instead 0.5C.

[bill good]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

This is false information. The cells are delivered with blank terminals from factory. The wholesaler then choses what connector he takes/sell the cells or if you order enough cells you can choose yours.
A friend of mine builds storage walls and get also EVE directly from factory. I chose Lishen as they had slightly better specs in 2020.
The rejected cells if matched properly in internal resitance have just less capacity but can do the same C ratings then Grade A.
But correct EVE280AH are storage cycle batteries that can 1C constant/2C peak but from experience (also my friend above who gets a container of them twice a month) used above 0.5C frequently degrade much faster.
The new welded 304AH are similar, just threshold is 1C instead 0.5C.

The information I provided is not false. It is fact. These cells are not manufactured for solar by EVE but have failed to pass for the intended use & sold off in lots for reuse in solar. This thread was about using these cells without a BMS for starting battery which IMHO is not the best practice for these cells. Not sure if any cell balance was used in this case. There is no published specs from EVE for these recycled cells. Only by resellers.

If I had this information I would have used different cells for the battery I built 18mths ago.