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Old 09-02-2020, 19:11   #151
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Using electricity to travel the ICW and canals of Europe is practical, but inconvenient. They are not the same things.

Motoring at 3-4kt is inconveniently slow but still a practical speed. Anchorages on the ICW are at most about 40nm apart. That means a 10-13hr day depending on the boat. Inconvenient yes, impractical for a recreational boater, no.
Of course, practical and inconvenient are not the same. I still maintain that ICW or canal cruising is more than inconvenient with electric unless you add the generator.

Even at 3-4 kts you would need a barge full of batteries and/or solar panels (or a generator) to motor more than a couple of hours or so. With current technology unless you have a cat or similar with large deck space for LOTS of panels the only way to get all day cruising under power still goes back to adding a generator, otherwise it isn't practical at all.
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Old 09-02-2020, 19:14   #152
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by lordgeoff View Post
Primarily my Beneteau 50 is a sailboat.
It is also blessed with a simple shaft drive 90HP Perkins.
It is further blessed to be able to carry 600Lt diesel.
Fuel use averaged over a few thousand hours is 2.7-3Lt/Hr@6-8Knots.
Motoring range experienced >1200NM
For serious cruising there are many many reasons why I would never replace the versatility, predictability, reliability, range and safety of this configuration with any sort of solar/electric motor/battery configuration.
And for all the reasons I listed, regardless of my wish that I could practically and economically switch to electric, I am sticking with diesel. Maybe if there's a major breakthrough in batteries or solar but until then, nope.
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Old 09-02-2020, 19:16   #153
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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100% agree. The first time I was ever on a sailboat I was 25 and had no idea what to expect. When we reached the ocean, hoisted sails and turned off the motor it was magic.

Interesting. When I was a broker motorsailor had a different and very specific meaning although how one differentiated the exact dividing line between sailboat and motorsailor was exact. Roughly a sailboat with more than 2 hp/foot might be a motorsailor but also taking into consideration the sailing ability. Some even rated various motorsailors in ratios of sailing to motoring ability like 80/20 or 50/50. Otherwise it was referred to as an auxiliary powered sailboat.
I too remember the first time I turned off the motor and experienced the sound, not interrupted by the diesel, of the water and wind. It was indeed magic!

I have read various definitions of motor sailor and I agree that the definition has changed quite a bit over the years to the point that today, one could make a fair argument that there is no longer a meaningful difference. I read one old school definition that was something along the lines of how the vessel sails with the engine on and the sails as it does without the engine. I think, but am not sure, that if it sailed no faster with the engine on and the sails than it did with just the sails, then it was an auxiliary sailor. If it sailed faster with the engine and sails together, then it was a motor sailor.

Today's boats have far more powerful engines than even just twenty years ago, so it is possible that technically most are now motor sailors.
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Old 09-02-2020, 19:54   #154
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY View Post
I have read various definitions of motor sailor and I agree that the definition has changed quite a bit over the years to the point that today, one could make a fair argument that there is no longer a meaningful difference. I read one old school definition that was something along the lines of how the vessel sails with the engine on and the sails as it does without the engine. I think, but am not sure, that if it sailed no faster with the engine on and the sails than it did with just the sails, then it was an auxiliary sailor. If it sailed faster with the engine and sails together, then it was a motor sailor.

Today's boats have far more powerful engines than even just twenty years ago, so it is possible that technically most are now motor sailors.
I agree that the lines between sailboat and motorsailor have been blurred if the line was ever really clear. But like the judge that said I can't define porn but I know it when I see it, i might not be able to define a motorsailer but I know one when I see it.
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Old 09-02-2020, 20:06   #155
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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I agree that the lines between sailboat and motorsailor have been blurred if the line was ever really clear. But like the judge that said I can't define porn but I know it when I see it, i might not be able to define a motorsailer but I know one when I see it.
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Old 09-02-2020, 22:49   #156
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by stormalong View Post
No where in your post did you mention that those huge ships propelled by electric motors are powered by huge generators. Most of which are diesel powered. A small number are nuclear powered. None of them run on batteries and solar power. Omissions count as deception.
There are battery powered car ferries operating in various locations around the world. Unless you want to discount a 150-200ft vessel as a ship.
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Old 09-02-2020, 23:01   #157
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
There are battery powered car ferries operating in various locations around the world. Unless you want to discount a 150-200ft vessel as a ship.
Here's one of them. It's only a 5.6km run, but it charges in 10min using large battery banks onshore at each end of its route. 120 car ferry that travels at 10knots.

https://www.norwegianamerican.com/the-tesla-of-the-sea/
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Old 10-02-2020, 01:59   #158
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by MichaelPrichard View Post
Here's one of them. It's only a 5.6km run, but it charges in 10min using large battery banks onshore at each end of its route. 120 car ferry that travels at 10knots.

https://www.norwegianamerican.com/the-tesla-of-the-sea/



snip-----
So Ampere starts each sailing day with its batteries fully charged, and during the day boost charges during brief ten-minute stops at the two ferry terminals. In turn, the terminals have batteries that can cope with the brief recharging loads, and themselves be recharged when the ferry is away from a terminal.
----- snip


I consider they have to change the onboard batteries every three month due to the boost charge wrecking.
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Old 10-02-2020, 02:17   #159
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by Mauruuru View Post
If electric propulsion was ineffective the US Navy wouldn't be repowering ships and building new ones with it. Running a diesel genset at a constant RPM gets the best possible performance out of IC engine (30% maybe). Using electric drives gives the vessel immediate response to speed inputs and direction.
Ships not boats.

Single biggest issue...mechanical transmissions that can handle 20,000hp are large and complicated. Using an electric generator/motor combo to replace the transmission does a great job all be it at slightly worse efficiency than straight diesel.

For a military ship, extra maneuverability is worth that trade off. Majority of freighters still use a straight diesel engine directly linked to the prop and they use tugs to maneuver.
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:34   #160
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

In the long run the solutions that shipping adopt will be significantly different than the ones that the recreational market adopts so looking to shipping either to make a point or make a counter-point is not a strong argument either way.
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Old 10-02-2020, 13:10   #161
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
In the long run the solutions that shipping adopt will be significantly different than the ones that the recreational market adopts so looking to shipping either to make a point or make a count-point is not a strong argument either way.
Exactly. Though both big ships and cruisers the goal is to move a vessel through the water from point A to point B comparing the two is a classic apples and oranges scenario. Huge differences due to size, displacement, primary goal of the vessel, etc.
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Old 10-02-2020, 13:11   #162
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

"Cars started out with less than 50 miles to a charge. The latest technology is promising 300 miles per charge."

My Model 3 gets over 300 miles per charge now.
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Old 10-02-2020, 16:15   #163
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

Two points:

It is not about replacing your diesel with electric. Not even I would consider that. It is about when the time comes you need to buy new (for example diesel beyond repair) and make the choice. Confronted with that choice I may go for electric. My father would choose diesel

In this thread I am waiting for the diesel fan boys to start arguing that diesel bow thrusters rule
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Old 10-02-2020, 16:17   #164
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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Sorry but I didn't understand that you were not "speaking" literally.

If you didn't mean it as I read it then could you perhaps explain for me in simpler terms as I am an engineer and do tend to take things literally.
Darn! Lost a rather long reply. Short reply: The picture of my Windrocket was intended to make you chuckle. It's truly tiny and about as hard to sail as a windsurfer. But people cruise on Hobie cats, and I cruised on a Hobie 33 ULDB. A boat that sails well has inherently modest propulsion needs. So it was a no-brainer to electrify the Hobie 33.

Electric boating was started by Jacobi in 1839.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_boat

The Allies, before the middle of the last century, considered battery-powered electric boats a very serious threat. For good reasons.

I bet we can do it now... even better.
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Old 10-02-2020, 19:07   #165
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Re: Replace Diesel with electric engine

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I bet we can do it now... even better.
For example, with a very limited budget, one could provide energy for lights, galley, refrigerator, electronics and motoring, without even taking advantage of sailing regen, as these folks do. Kudos for a nicely done explanation:

.

They use a lot of the same stuff that I have used on land and water. The little Dometic, for instance, is wonderfully efficient.
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