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Old 17-09-2024, 20:41   #1
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Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

https://www.poweryachtblog.com/2024/...-longboat.html


I haven’t seen anything posted here on this. Very interested to hear the cause and the battery chemistry.
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Old 17-09-2024, 21:28   #2
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

Quote:
The boat burned through the night, with the fire officials determining that Lithium powered batteries where involved in the fire, although in later statements they did not confirm they where the cause of the blaze.
Seems that they haven't determined the cause.
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Old 17-09-2024, 22:02   #3
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

The boat specs call for a ton (probably literally) of AGM. Will be interesting to see if we ever learn what she really had, and if lithium whether it was factory or aftermarket.
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Old 17-09-2024, 22:21   #4
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

Another article:
https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/f...dRedirect=true

Takeaways:
It probably had a Mastervolt LFP system.
The boat was remotely monitored, and there was noted voltage fluctuations, and a tripped circuit breaker was reset.
Cause is under investigation.

While the boat is obviously a total loss, it burned less than most boat fires I have seen, where the fiberglass burned to the waterline. I would not guess thermal runaway was taking place based on the pictures. And the voltage fluctuations and tripped circuit breaker point to an electrical fire other than the batteries.
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Old 18-09-2024, 06:21   #5
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

Be sure to read the comments at the end of the article too.
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Old 29-09-2024, 14:09   #6
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

I wonder if we'll ever know the real deal with that fire.

I don't think it was actually the Lifepo4 that caused things... I think it was the charging or something related.
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Old 29-09-2024, 17:58   #7
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

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Originally Posted by wholybee View Post
I would not guess thermal runaway was taking place based on the pictures.
Interesting that based on a few still photos, you draw a different conclusion that the professional firefighters on scene at the time.

I have seen a thermal runaway fire in LiFePO4 batteries (a golf cart). It was a truly spectacular event. A major city fire department had a huge response, and all they could do was keep it from spreading. The metal parts of the golf cart--and the ones on either side of it--were literally a puddle of glowing molten metal on the ground. I learned that 100% for sure all those people who say that an LiFePO fire is "impossible" are full of crap. It might be very rare, but it is most certainly NOT impossible.
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Old 29-09-2024, 18:20   #8
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

a tripped breaker points to the actual fire starter being the wiring.

breakers don’t trip when the source of power (the battery bank) fluctuates and fails due to thermal runaway.

they trip when a load (or short) asks for too much power in a circuit, raising the current unacceptably high.

i notice all the battery fuses are ABYC compliant in terms of distance from the batteries, but…. they could have done better to put them on the battery terminals too

also… i’ve seen plenty of thermal runaway videos. there is typically a 6ft continuous flame shooting out of the battery. this would have ate right through the deck in short order.

awaiting official results, but looks like wiring
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Old 30-09-2024, 01:59   #9
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

It is a bit confusing for the public when there are ample articles and videos demonstrating total abuse of lifepo4 with no fire consequences, including drilling multiple holes in them. (No runaway fire consequences, the batteries in one video did heat up and vent some smoke with surface temperature around 300 Fahrenheit).

Maybe all batteries should be subject to some standard abuse test like shooting holes through an entire battery, not just a cel. Plus, what happens if another fire source engulfs the enclosure where the battery is.

There are some nice liquid cooled batteries in high voltage high current applications. Wonder what they’d do. The BMS and external protection will (should) for all batteries (fancy liquid cooled or lithium cobalt) have isolated the bank from the system.
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Old 06-10-2024, 04:53   #10
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
Interesting that based on a few still photos, you draw a different conclusion that the professional firefighters on scene at the time.

I have seen a thermal runaway fire in LiFePO4 batteries (a golf cart). It was a truly spectacular event. A major city fire department had a huge response, and all they could do was keep it from spreading. The metal parts of the golf cart--and the ones on either side of it--were literally a puddle of glowing molten metal on the ground. I learned that 100% for sure all those people who say that an LiFePO fire is "impossible" are full of crap. It might be very rare, but it is most certainly NOT impossible.
You can get everything to burn, even concrete it's just a question of likelihood and other circumstances.
I highly doubt they where lifepo4 in that golf car and if what was the system voltage?
What a lot don't tell you that with rising voltage the danger of an arcing and not extinguishing light bow that actually bypasses fuse risies significantly and causing the fire. in 12V nearly impossible, in 24V still nearly impossible but in 48V it's possible even in normal surrounding conditions get to get an arcing lightbow with the enormous amount of energy stored in a LiFePO4...the big shadow side of 48V nobody talks about.
All is great with 48V, smaller cables and smaller hardware in inverters using less current...all great, nope. From 32V on its can get a danger to human being and b) fire and desaster risk raising exponentially as eg arcing is possible in standard environments.
That's why 24V is still the safest and best compromise for a vessel and as long as you don't have electric propulsion no need to go higher.
it's not the cell that gets a runaway which is nearly impossible below 32V...nearly impossible but I had it with a 15kA class T got arced. But that was the only incident like this in 20years dealing with lithium, but lead and especially AGMs redecorated a lot car interiors and burned several cars down quite frequently....not mine as I stayed away from lead where I can but I saw it frequently happened on car stereo competition events where things are taken to and above limit.
It's not the lifepo4 itself but the high voltage in an EV combined with a) the high constant C draw and b) the enormous amount of energy that's causing all the EV fires of LiFePO4 and derivate cars that causes an non extinguishing arc that bypasses the fuses eg between the cells typically found in EV battery packs and start then the desaster.
Completely different as a house bank in a boat, which is used in low C from typically 0.1-0.3C max and is still in majority is 12 or 24V.

An AGM can get much easier a thermal runaway, a slightly faulty alternator regulator is all it needs and nobody ever complained about that or an ABYC is caring about that but Lithium we need another strickter and tighter monitoring making all more complex. Nobody talks here about tight monitoring and BMSs for an AGM where it would be really necessary.
I had 3 severe events with AGM, two in a new car 3 and other 1 month old where AGM just got runaway and I had the luck to have breathing mask from painting and BBQ gloves in the trunk so I could rip it out before it burned the car down, reason a slightly faulty alternator. Same on my old ketch where the overload of the bowtruster caused an internal short an also runaway, was tossing the hot AGM batteries overboard in the habour bay. All where high quality brand AGM batteries. Never ever again AGM on board any vessel I own.
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:09   #11
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

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Originally Posted by Capt Clark View Post
https://www.poweryachtblog.com/2024/...-longboat.html


I haven’t seen anything posted here on this. Very interested to hear the cause and the battery chemistry.
Battery chemistry only matters if that was the cause of the fire. Otherwise it is just more fodder for misinformation. "Oh, a boat with lithium batteries burned! See how dangerous lithium batteries are."
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Old 24-10-2024, 16:09   #12
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Re: Power cat burns in FL - lithium batteries suspected

I have it on very good authority that the LFP batteries (Mastervolt) were installed under the cabin sole and during the initial fire scene evaluation by the firefighters, they were normal. The only fire was in one of the engine rooms 25’ away from the house bank.
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