New Lithium Battery Report

[MJH]

Originally Posted by sailorbryant

Switched house batteries to lithium

Thought I would give a report on getting new lithium batteries for my sailboat. We have a Hunter 460. My existing batteries were six Five year old Trojan T-105 six volt golf cart batteries for a house bank of 600 AH. My existing inverter/charger was a Xantrex Freedom 2000. I had two existing 235Watt solar panels with TriStar 45A solar controller.

I installed the following in January 2022 before cruising to the Bahamas for two months.

1. Two Jita 300 AH lifep04 batteries
2. Magnum 3000 watt inverter/charger
3. Renogy 50 amp DC-DC charger with MPPT solar controller
4. Renogy battery monitor with 500A shunt
5. Two 300A power buss bars for battery installation.
6. New cables as needed
7. 12v trolling motor breakers as needed
8. I added two additional 200 watt solar panels.

I installed the batteries per manufacturer instructions. Also after installation I discharged each battery to 11V per manufacturer instructions and then charged them to 14.7V per manufacturer. The capacity recorded by the battery monitor was 312AH for one battery and 313AH for the other. The voltage comparison between batteries from the manufacturer before discharge and after resting the batteries were virtually identical which indicated they were balanced.

I am very happy with the new installation. The batteries charged very quickly and it was nice that the voltage never dropped very much during use. During our two months in the Bahamas our electrical consumption consisted of:
1. 12V freezer and refrigerator compressors
2. 30 gal per hour watermaker for two hours every 4-5 days
3. Lights, charging phones, computers, toothbrushes, razor and batteries for tools.
4. Electric kettle, Instapot and Ninja cooker. We had always used propane in the past for cooking and found out we had plenty of battery power to use electric with the new batteries. We used almost no propane in two months- less than 10% of one 10lb tank.
5. Electric ice maker we run for about a half day every two to three days. We really like ice in our sundowners.

We did not have to run the generator for the entire time we were in the Bahamas. The solar panels and batteries supplied all of our power. Power from motoring was pretty inconsequential as we only used about 10-15 gal of diesel while we were there.

In summary the batteries performed flawlessly and exceeded our expectations. The lowest we discharged them to was 33% after making a lot of water one day and having the Instapot on most of the day. The next day was sunny and they came back up to 75%. The next day after that was sunny also and they came back up to 100%.

How much did the conversion to Lithium cost you?

You had 2x235=470W solar; you added 2x200w=400W...now 870W total. Did you really need the extra 400W with lithium batteries?

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Paul,
Not to hijack the thread, but you obviously know much more than I do on lithium. Any issues w/these 300ah bats?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08K7HZ6KZ..._dp_it_im&th=1

Will Prowse tore them down and seemed ok.



(We aren't planning any high lat trips so don't think we need internal heating)

Seems like a capable battery. But there are some fundamental flaws. The outer housing is sealed, so it is practically impossible to service the battery. The individual cells of course are sealed units, so why the need for a sealed housing? Should the electronic module, a sensor, or a termination fail, the expensive battery becomes expensive junk. The housing could be made to be easily opened to allow for servicing. Who knows, maybe such a failure will never happen but just in case, it should have been made to be repairable. Seems that they cheapized it by using the shell of a conventional lead acid battery. The lack of cold temperature sensing seems to be a fatal flaw. I would not give this one a pass. Wonder if other manufacturers have designs that solve these issues?

[4arch]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

Seems like a capable battery. But there are some fundamental flaws. The outer housing is sealed, so it is practically impossible to service the battery.

Very few pre-built drop-in LFP batteries are truly fully user serviceable. Even high end Battle Borns are in sealed boxes. At the high end I guess they’re counting on the robust warranty to reassure people and at the low end they assume even if you fry a cell and must replace the whole battery out of pocket, you will still come out money ahead of the more expensive brands. I agree that user serviceability is a good thing, both for repairability and because an easily disassembled battery seems more likely to receive proper recycling/disposal at its end of life.

Among drop-in style LFP batteries, SOK is very well-regarded and completely user serviceable. Sun Fun Kits also offers a DIY-assembled kit that gives you an openable plastic box that’s fully serviceable. Server rack LFP batteries are gaining popularity as a serviceable option, but their steel cases would give me pause on a boat. Otherwise, you’re probably better off with a full DIY build if servicing the battery is important to you.

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

The lack of cold temperature sensing seems to be a fatal flaw.

Low temp cutoff is omitted from many but not all of the low end LFP batteries for reasons I can’t comprehend, but I don’t go so far as to agree lack of low temp cutoff is a fatal flaw. There are plenty of boats that will never experience freezing temperatures. And even here where it gets cold enough to be a problem, one could simply make disconnecting their batteries part of their winterization routine to get around this. That said, disconnecting is something that can potentially be overlooked so I wouldn’t personally feel comfortable putting a battery without low temp cutoff on my boat, but for some it could be a tradeoff worth living with.

[Nate24]

https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/ins...ium-ion-boats/

I believe Markel and a couple of others in the US are reducing their insurance coverage for lithium. Until the ABYC comes out with their rule caution is in order.

[CarlF]

I also switched to Lithium and would never go back. I love that I don't have to think much about the battery. I look at the charge once a day. I also love that they deliver 13+ volts until below 20% charge. Every 12v motor (refrigeration, winches, windlass) runs better.

For those considering the switch to Lithium for a boat, do look at KiloVault. Great reviews from MaineSail (also Will). Backed by a large and decades old US solar company (AltE in Massachusetts) so there should be a company a few years from now to stand behind the warranty. Pricing is very good. Slightly better than Battleborn. I know of a half dozen cruising boats that have installed them.

I think more insurance companies will start to object to owner installed lithium banks. I recently filled out an insurance application that wanted the brand of Lithium battery and asked if they were "professionally installed" (and the name of the installer).

The upcoming release of the ABYC lithium standard (TE-13) is going to be interesting. It will require that the batteries communicate. We don't quite know the details of the "communication" but bluetooth (which the KiloVaults have) may clear the hurdle. But there are many, many lithium batteries already installed in boats without communication. Will insurance companies care? Will surveyors?

[sailorman14]

I too am wondering how much you spent on the conversion ??

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Awesome. LiFePO4 is a gamechanger, and there are many options for install. What I learned from mine, and you have proven also, is that you don't need the expensive high end BMS with relays and CANBUS connections to everything. They are truly (if installed correctly) and install it and forget it piece of kit.

And because they charge so fast from solar, there is less need for other charging sources, and you can use all the electric gizmos.

Congrats on your sailing season.

Well we will see...
There are many legit reasons to have BMS with CAN and relay or in my case the "highend" Electrodacus BMS for 160Euro that via remote switches all sources on/off and steers the whole installation. The huge advantage you don't need expensive relays and the remote of victron is extensively factory tested to work reliable

[pas63]

Originally Posted by sailorman14

I too am wondering how much you spent on the conversion ??

I just did roughly the same conversion. I went from 2 - 6v golf cart batteries from West marine that were shot after a year.

I bought 4 - 100 amp Renogy batteries on sale, including 3 years extended warantee - $3,359. I bought 3 Renogy 100 watt solar panels, $99 each. I have these on an arch, wired in series to cut down on wire (25-30' from solar to MPPT) loss.

I originally had a Victron MPPT but scrapped it because I was not getting the expected charge. If I used the lithium default setting I was barely getting a charge. I played around with it and discovered I had to set the charge voltage to 16 v to see any real charge. I replaced it with a Renogy MPPT for $211, set it for lithium and it's charging as expected. I've seen a day total (In Jacksonville) of 149 amps. I've also seen a max solar wattage of 369.

There are a few annoyances. The MPPT is bluetooth capable as are the batteries but you have to buy the external plug in bluetooth modules for $37 each. Not expensive,, but I wish the MPPT and batteries worked together. Instead you have to add each as a separate device in the app. I also wish the MPPT provided more data vs having to view it in the app. Overall I spent under $4,000 and am very happy with the performance.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well we will see...
There are many legit reasons to have BMS with CAN and relay or in my case the "highend" Electrodacus BMS for 160Euro that via remote switches all sources on/off and steers the whole installation. The huge advantage you don't need expensive relays and the remote of victron is extensively factory tested to work reliable

I know of very few reasons for CAN control. For sure there are a few, but they would be atypical installations.

The Victron is probably as good or better than the Electrodacus at knowing when to stop charging (assuming a smartshunt or BMV-712 is included), with an exception, if the cells are out of balance and need an extended absorption time at a lower voltage to balance them. That should ONLY happen if there is a problem with the cells, perhaps they are grade B. Or if you have high charge rates, which solar usually isn't.

Alternator control is certainly an advantage of CAN connection. Not so much to control charging normally, but to be able to stop charging before opening a relay to avoid a voltage surge.

I would still suggest that you need Relays, even with CAN control. The sole purpose of a BMS is to protect the battery. I've seen a case of an MPPT fail to put the solar panels directly to the battery. That could be 100V or more with panels in series. And with only CAN control, the BMS would have no way to stop a failed/dead short MPPT. An alternator regulator could fail in a similar way, putting unregulated voltage to the battery. If you are counting on these failures to not happen, then you really have no need for a BMS, just a simple passive balancer. Because without some fault or failure, the cells would never go out of acceptable operating parameters.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I know of very few reasons for CAN control. For sure there are a few, but they would be atypical installations.
.

It might not be needed, but it is extremely nice to have. My whole system is fully integrated, and it all works beautifully. Connect it all up, and it just works. Cerbo Gx talks to my REC BMS, which also talks to my alternator regulator… Cerbo also controls my solar input, my inverter/charger, tanks, bilge pumps, and so forth. Best of all, I can check on the whole thing remotely. Plus, it also ties into my NMEA 2000 bus, so I can see certain parameters from my instrumentation and/or WilhelmSK on my iDevices.

So yes, I could have done the whole thing without CAN communications, but it would have been more work to tweak and configure, would be less monitorable, and likely less reliable.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by CarlF

.....................


I think more insurance companies will start to object to owner installed lithium banks. I recently filled out an insurance application that wanted the brand of Lithium battery and asked if they were "professionally installed" (and the name of the installer).

...................

Carl,


Interesting observation.


After reading tons of Lith installation threads on this and many other boating websites, I can fully understand why this could be possible.


It seems to me, after being active in boating electrical systems for the past 25 years, that many folks still don't understand simple FLA systems!


Add to this, now, Lith, which requires a complete recalibration of thought regarding charging system capacity and control, alternator cutoff and the like, there is an even more astounding lack of understanding.


For example, just this morning I read a thread here from a skipper who is installing BB Lith on his boat and he already bought them but is asking how to control and connect his alternator, and also includes the fact that his BBs do not have any eternal output from their BMS to even be able to connect a relay to shut down his alternator!!!


Lith DIY guys continue to try to reinvent the wheel, even after the boat electrical guru himself, Maine Sail, TOLD them all IN WRITING, how to do it properly: https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-life...ated-consumer/


It's like they never bothered to read it. And it seems to me that anyone who posts on a boating forum should know who Maine Sail is.

[sv_shellbelle]

I was pleased to see your successful transition to lithium. I am about to do this on my own Hunter 460 and hoped you could help me with a question about handling the alternator.

Specifically: where did you install the DC to DC, and what did you need to do to make sure the alternator was not charging the house bank while keeping it connected to the windlass? Is there a separate solenoid I need to deal with? Did you entirely remove the starter switch from below the nav station seat?

I would be very grateful for any help.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

For example, just this morning I read a thread here from a skipper who is installing BB Lith on his boat and he already bought them but is asking how to control and connect his alternator, and also includes the fact that his BBs do not have any eternal output from their BMS to even be able to connect a relay to shut down his alternator!!!

Confused, Trying to make sense out of your post and I've never heard the term eternal output used in relation to any chemistry Lithium batteries, or relating to Battery Management Systems . . . .Could you have perhaps have meant to type EXTERNAL output? If so, whole different ball game, which I understand. It's just difficult trying to make heads or tails out of posts when nonsensical words/phrases are used!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Nate24

https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/ins...ium-ion-boats/

I believe Markel and a couple of others in the US are reducing their insurance coverage for lithium. Until the ABYC comes out with their rule caution is in order.

Well it seems to be in the works hopefully fully done by end of year
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3685665

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Well it seems to be in the works hopefully fully done by end of year

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3685665

From my correspondence , with my insurance , there does seem to be a dawning that LFP is safe.