New Battery Technology

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Ummm...... Spend a few minutes and work out the combination of 6 voltages that can reach the end of charge voltage .... it won't take long to realise at least one cell can go over voltage even if the end of charge voltage is less than the perfectly balance cell voltage of say 15v, 2.5v per cell, not fully charged, so the full cell capacity isn't available ......

You can discharge LTO cells with a built in LVC circuit under the cap, cells without this function, do so at your own peril, if the other cells in the 6 cell pack are still above zero voltage, the current will flow in reverse through the fully drained cell, they certainly don't respond well to that treatment ....

T1 Terry

Terry I am only talking about 6S1P LTO from Yinglong 30AH and 40AH LTO cell. We and thousands of car stereo SPL unlimited freaks tortured these cells in all possible ways till total death and no issue with any of the cells beside just not functioning/charging anymore..non catched fire in more then 10 years and won't as they don't, they simply stop working...yes several cables melted but that was bad install and missing/wrong fuses, not fault of the LTO.
These cells are around for a long time already.

Discharge to 0V and recharge, 10% of total cycle life gone, maybe 1-3% capacity but thats about it, nothing else will happen.

Many run these cells in 6S1P in 30AH and 40AH in their cars since years...many V8 petrols and diesel as only battery without any mods to alternators or use of a BMS or a DC to DC charger. Just a total voltage meter to see roughly how full they are.

And yes as I said you get 37-38AH of a 40AH, not full capacity but 95-97% (look at their charge curve, even steeper then Lifepo4) which is more then enough and actually give them a longer cycle life.

just have a look what extremes they tested these cells...No FLA, SLA, NO gel or No AGM, no other Lithium chemstry would survive that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUYbSDEy6I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzt9RZ0FQyM

Sure for peace of mind you can use an Elctrodacus BMS as this carries no current (or any other BMS that doesn't) and therefor cannot be killed by the surge and peaks a starter motor creates. But you don't want a BMS take out your 6P1S LTO starter because its at 10V but you need to start your engine because at Anchor you dragging direction a reef or shore...I prefer my LTO looses 1% capacity then but starts the engine....

And yes a HVC could be done by a Battery monitor like Victron BMV 712 at 15V or the Elcotrodacus BMS (which is cheaper) again for piece of mind.
As I also said in 24V or higher voltage with 11 or 12S thats a totally different game, you need min. active balancers plus a BMS as they tend to drift appart.
Not mainly to protect the install but get a functioning battery pack for a long time.

These LTO cells are 1000% safer then anything thats called lead...

[T1 Terry]

The safety aspect isn't in question by me, I know just how safe they are after a length of all thread rod shorted across 4 of my 55Ah cells, it was glowing red when I cut it off with an angle grinder so it didn't damage any other cells. two of the safety pressure plugs popped and released the elctrolyte, but that was it, no explosion, no cloud of vapour, just emptied the elctrolyte so it could no longer charge or discharge, a virtually dead cell.

It was the cycle life I was concerned about when not using a cell voltage level BMS and active balancing. The BMS and balancer is a lot cheaper than the replacement cells, a quality BMS will give a clear warning well before the battery disconnect occurs, if you didn't start the engine when the alarm went off ..... you can't really develop a fool proof system, they just keep making better fools :lol: I guess Darwin's selection of the better qualities in the breed kicks in and flushes the gene pool .....

T1 Terry

[rgleason]

Calcium Alloy and Antimony Batteries for Grid Storage

https://ambri.com/technology/


Low cost

Once delivered on-site, heaters within the system bring the cells up to their operating temperature, which activates them and allows them to start storing or returning electrical energy.
Although the system is expected to remain at operating temperature continuously for the life of the system, cells are designed to undergo dozens of thermal cycles, from room temperature to 500 °C, without impacting cell performance.
Cells are also highly tolerant of over-charging or over-discharging, and are not subject to thermal runaway, electrolyte decomposition, or electrolyte off-gassing, each of which could lead to significant safety events with other cell chemistries,

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

LTO Batteries not for cruisers due to discharge inefficiency and expense.

That’s completely wrong and Will himself corrected that later in the forum and with another video. Discharge efficiency is better then LFP yes they cost more but work for 50years…
Oh yes they are for boaters, the best Start battery you can find
10C discharge/charge means you can have a small AH capacity but drive all loads existing on boats, safest chemistry available at the moment.

And yes they are for boaters, especially in eg Longkeel boats where you need a large bowtruster…had a 9kw bowtruster, plus needed a starter and house on a 12m boat. Well I could fit 400AH LTO, still 1/3 less weight where before 4x140AH lead was sitting that needed to be replaced all 2 years because they where operated at the limits. One was starter, the rest 3 house+bowtruster.
Needed above 1000A current delivery for bowtruster, no LFP would fit as they can only do 2C (expensive Winston) and as house only a hybrid starter/service FLA could be used. Only LTO could do the job…

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

The safety aspect isn't in question by me, I know just how safe they are after a length of all thread rod shorted across 4 of my 55Ah cells, it was glowing red when I cut it off with an angle grinder so it didn't damage any other cells. two of the safety pressure plugs popped and released the elctrolyte, but that was it, no explosion, no cloud of vapour, just emptied the elctrolyte so it could no longer charge or discharge, a virtually dead cell.

It was the cycle life I was concerned about when not using a cell voltage level BMS and active balancing. The BMS and balancer is a lot cheaper than the replacement cells, a quality BMS will give a clear warning well before the battery disconnect occurs, if you didn't start the engine when the alarm went off ..... you can't really develop a fool proof system, they just keep making better fools :lol: I guess Darwin's selection of the better qualities in the breed kicks in and flushes the gene pool .....

T1 Terry

I am sure it will cost some cycle life running a 6S1P without BMS but having 50years and maybe loosing 20, so was not my concern as 30 years is plenty enough though. Actually a balancer is more important then BMS with 12V LTO.
A 40AH yinglong cell is somewhere between 40 and 80Euro, so cheaper then a LTO BMS that is able to run 400A. And if you just assemble a 6s1p start battery 6 cells is all what you need, if you wanna do good add a active balancer.
It’s a quite foolproof system, a 7lV8 starts even when the 6s1p bank is at 8V…
Sure you can add a warning and BMS getting total cost higher, depends how much sigma security you want or can afford.
but well if the charge system doesn’t work you want the 8V LTO start your engine so no disconnect at all, LTO doesn‘t need it and as starter you don‘t want to.

LTO‘s are Perfect for 48V System as cell voltage fits well but that must have a BMS and a very good powerful active balancer. Things here as 48V house are different, both is a must or your bank is out of balance under a week and Life cycle will suffer a lot.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Calcium Alloy and Antimony Batteries for Grid Storage

https://ambri.com/technology/


Low cost

70% charge efficiency vs 93% for LFP and 90% for lead acid.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Adelie

70% charge efficiency vs 93% for LFP and 90% for lead acid.

Yes bad charge efficiency but you can put your whole bank in the engine room as they can withstand high temps. Would have been a good solution for my old longkeeler motorsailor….
Where do you get FLA 90% efficiency number…more like 60%

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Yes bad charge efficiency but you can put your whole bank in the engine room as they can withstand high temps. Would have been a good solution for my old longkeeler motorsailor….
Where do you get FLA 90% efficiency number…more like 60%

I mis-recalled it's really 85-90%, seasonally dependent. I got my data from Australian battery testing that started 2016 and is still going on.
The first several reports included data from 2 types of lead acid batteries. The more advanced EcoUlt batteries with Carbon coating provided a 1-2% efficiency advantage.
Pg 34 from https://arena.gov.au/assets/2015/08/...report-3-1.pdf has the data in question. EcoUlt and GNB are the LA batteries.

Link to website with more info. https://arena.gov.au/knowledge-bank/...entre-reports/
Gov't funded testing has concluded as of 2022-03. There may be continuing testing, I'm looking into that.

[rgleason]

Since they are actually deploying these and they are made up of smaller cells, I'd be interested in the voltage and amps, and how dense they are, but that info does not seem to be available.

I suppose winter storage would just involve dropping the temperature from 500 degrees.

It seems pretty impractical for boats but who knows.

[rgleason]

It's complex, materials science, so computing is involved.
https://www.ibm.com/case-studies/mitsubishi-chemical/
https://www.ibm.com/case-studies/daimler/
https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2...fur-batteries/


LiS in our future?

[rgleason]

Some Links:
QuantumScape Lithium-metal


Solid Power Silicone EV

Natron - also Lithium-metal

CATL Sodium Ion

Form Iron Air Battery Cheaper battery for Grid Power

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles...secret-formula

MIT Technology

One advance to keep an eye on this year is in so-called solid-state batteries. Lithium-ion batteries and related chemistries use a liquid electrolyte that shuttles charge around; solid-state batteries replace this liquid with ceramics or other solid materials.

[rgleason]

A friend sent a Technology Newsletter with the topic EV and Batteries.
It appears that the car manufacturers are headed to sophisticated and safer batteries with LFP. Maybe some of these modules will make their way into boats someday.



BYD Blade Battery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_battery

https://pushevs.com/2021/08/10/this-...f-competition/
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/byd/...attery-update/

[rgleason]

Here is an excerpt from Jim's newsletter.

Battery Types – Lithium-Sulfur Characteristics
This battery converts the rare earth metals into a more plentiful and cheaper alternative at a cost of reduction in power output. Not a favored solution principally for its slow charge and discharge rates.

Battery Types – Solid State Battery Characteristics
This battery probably holds the highest position in terms of characteristics, but is only now shipping pre-production verslons to the future customers. At least four companies are very active in this section, eachwith a slight twist on the solution. Quantum Scape, Solid Power, Amperis, and SILA Nanotechnolgies each have a solid battery solution and are testing them now (in mid 2023). One other version with a unique format is the BYD Blade now in use by multiple automotive manufacturers. Of note, they use the majority of the production in their own BYD automobiles which is the number one car seller in the country of China which is the number one country by volume of Electric Vehicles in the world. This blade battery porports to be ‘like
a solid’ in that it does not catch fire, uses iron ions and is available today.

Battery Types – Aluminum-ion Battery Characteristics
Aluminum is a very prevalent and lower cost removing the rare earth from the equation. The lifetime of the battery is very long and the charge times are quite fast. Some tests are suggestion that the number of cycles could approach 20,000 which makes it a qualifier for the ‘million mile battery’ designation.

Battery Types – Niobium Battery Characteristics
The characteristics seem to be quite good, but the availability and cost of the metal is the downfall.

Battery Types – Sodium-ion Battery Characteristics
This is the real elephant in the room. Sodium is one of the most prevalent minerals / metals in the world and has the lowest cost of any solution. The electrical charactistics are excellent, and one of the several vendors can get some samples; it could be the best horse in the derby at this time. CATL is shipping production samples to several EV Makers. The conversion from Lithium-ion to Sodium-ion can be completely contained in the Battery Management System controller. The range is improved and the re-charge times are lowered, the cost is ¼ of Lithium for an identical size solution. This will be the competitor with the Solid State Battery because it will be ready in volume earlier and has a lower projected price point

[teneicm]

This seems to be lithium based, but at an amazing energy density:


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/c...kg-213684.html

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by teneicm

This seems to be lithium based, but at an amazing energy density:


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/c...kg-213684.html

More likely sodium ion, there's another company that has been producing Na-ion batteries for about a year, that supposedly have a specific energy of about 500Whr/kg.

Currently technology is that Na-ion has slightly better energy density (Whr/l) and slightly worse specific energy (Whr/kg). Cycle life currently is 500-2,000 cycles to 80% but at 1/3-1/2 the cost of Li-ion.

Even if Na-ion never matches Li-ion for specific energy or cycle life, the availability of materials and resulting lower cost will make it a better choice for most uses.