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CaptainRivet · 31-01-2021, 13:13

anyone considered LTO=lithium titanate oxid batteries?

saftest battery on the market, you can drill into them while using, no thermal runaway or dead after under or overcharging them.
30000 cycles, can be discharged to 0% (not recommended but they survive and loose only 300 of there 30000 cycles). Charge and discharge up to 10C, so already a 40AH battery runs your bowtruster or starter easyly instead of the 140-200AH lead acid brick.
yes only bare cells but any boater doing his own engine maintenance can connect them togehter. a good battery monitor for 12V or 24V usage with overvoltage cutoff and undervoltage warning is enough. No BMS required for this use. yes you maybe cut 2000h of there life, 30000-2000 is still more then 40years daily cycling...

CaptainRivet · 31-01-2021, 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

If I had the $$ to outlay and a 24v system, I would go with the LTO chemistry, even though I install LYP chemistry systems. The next time I swap out the LFP cells from my plug in hybrid Prius, I will be fitting LTO cells to take advantage of the very fast charging and ability to accept the full regen capability, something well outside to scope of LFP and LYP chemistry cells. The added room and weight will be an issue, but I still think it will be well worth the downside for all the benefits gained.

As far as an RV or marine house battery ... if you have a monster alternator and belt drive that can handle the high output, certainly worth investigating the comparative costs. The LTO chemistry shines bright when very high current discharge and recharge are the expected use.

T1 Terry

you don't need an high output alternator, good if you have but not needed.
solar does the trick here too, on cats you can easly fit 1500-2000W solar (a bifacial makes already 520W on one panel) which charges 120-160A and they will fully accept that. you also don't need such a big bank like with lifepo as you can really cycle them hard. the abuse they can withstand is abnormal (friend is using a 14V 80AH battery for his 8l V8 plus 10000W stereo since 3 years and he misuses them daily. Voltage drop during starting his 8l V8 is incredible 0.4V with the 80AH LTO battery).

on marine use the high output of the LTO with up to 10C play a role especially with smaller batterie bank from 100 till 500AH where you can run still run a big bowtruster of the house or cook with induction.

rgleason · 31-01-2021, 15:51

Yes, https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums....php?p=2975305

I know of two cruisers who have used these.

rgleason · 03-03-2021, 06:30

Trojan Triilliam "retired"

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"As of now, they are retired. They will be gearing up to make they again, but I can't tell you when it will happen"

T1 Terry · 03-03-2021, 21:18

The smaller battery pack can supply huge loads and huge recharge currents, but where capacity is required to continue supplying the power all night and even all the next day, only more battery capacity can do that.
I would still advise to monitor cell voltages and observe the recommended minimum and maximum voltages at cell level, not the series connected voltage level .... look after the cell voltages and the battery voltage will look after itself.

T1 Terry

CaptainRivet · 04-03-2021, 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgleason

LTO Batteries not for cruisers due to discharge inefficiency and expense.

DIY 12v LTO (Lithium Titanate) Battery

This Test is done wrongly and with worn out grade b cells. LTO have 94% efficiency, better then 92%LifePo4.

parachute · 04-03-2021, 02:08

[QUOTE=CaptainRivet;3332841]anyone considered LTO=lithium titanate oxid batteries?

Lithium-ion batteries commonly used in consumer electronics are notorious for bursting into flame when damaged or improperly packaged. ... "If the battery is damaged and the plastic layer fails, the electrodes can come into contact and cause the battery's liquid electrolyte to catch fire

CaptainRivet · 04-03-2021, 03:00

[QUOTE=parachute;3356592]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

anyone considered LTO=lithium titanate oxid batteries?

Lithium-ion batteries commonly used in consumer electronics are notorious for bursting into flame when damaged or improperly packaged. ... "If the battery is damaged and the plastic layer fails, the electrodes can come into contact and cause the battery's liquid electrolyte to catch fire

This danger is Ion, the18610cells, lifepo4 and its variants everything with LP in the name.
LTO is the safest battery you can buy today of all available (lead, gel, agm, lithium...)
LTO don't catch fire or get any kind of termal Runaway, you can drill into them while you use them. LTO can be discharged completly to 0 and then recharged again to 100% with loss of 300 of their 30000 cycles. Extremely high overcharge tolerance, you have to on purpose do this or be completely neglecting and even then they loose 5000 cycles but nothing else happens and they still work. All other batteries are dead if over/undercharge, LTO still works. You can dis/charge them with up to 10C and this till - 40 degree celsius.

**StuM** · 04-03-2021, 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

This danger is Ion, the18610cells, lifepo4 and its variants everything with LP in the name.

I wouldn't put any weight on the opinion of someone who doesn't know what "ion" means,thinks that all Lithium Ion types have "LP" in their name and that LTO is not a type of Lithium Ion battery.

FWIW, these as all Lithium Ion batteries, none of them have "LP" in their name

Lithium Cobalt Oxide(LiCoO2) — LCO
Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) — LMO
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) — NMC
Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) — LFP
Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) — NCA
Lithium Titanate (Li2TiO3) — LTO

CaptainRivet · 04-03-2021, 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM

I wouldn't put any weight on the opinion of someone who doesn't know what "ion" means,thinks that all Lithium Ion types have "LP" in their name and that LTO is not a type of Lithium Ion battery.

FWIW, these as all Lithium Ion batteries, none of them have "LP" in their name

Lithium Cobalt Oxide(LiCoO2) — LCO
Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) — LMO
Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) — NMC
Lithium Iron Phosphate(LiFePO4) — LFP
Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) — NCA
Lithium Titanate (Li2TiO3) — LTO

Was stated for the average salior here who don't know 95% of Lithium chemistry you stated and nobody using for large AH banks and LP and Ion meant in the shortcut. I installed 7 cars and 4 boats with LTO so I know what i am talking about compared to 99% here who sitting on the sofa and repeat what they read somewhere.

rgleason · 04-03-2021, 18:28

Note we do not want a disruptive and unproductive discussion here. Let's be respectful.

T1 Terry · 04-03-2021, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Was stated for the average salior here who don't know 95% of Lithium chemistry you stated and nobody using for large AH banks and LP and Ion meant in the shortcut. I installed 7 cars and 4 boats with LTO so I know what i am talking about compared to 99% here who sitting on the sofa and repeat what they read somewhere.

Then you are the man to talk to .... what BMS system did you use to monitor cell voltages and trigger load cut and charge cut? What voltages do you use as the safe upper and lower voltages? Getting proper information about the "Safe for long cycle life" about these cells is hard to find, just like LFP and LYP cells, the manufacturers cell voltage extremes are not the same as extended cycle life extremes but rather maximum capacity extremes and cycle life be buggered ....

What cell balancing method do you use? Because the voltages are so low the differential between a high cell and a low cell doesn't work well with capacity shifting type balancing and the crude method of turning capacity into heat requires a lot of secondary wiring and cooling that would be great to avoid, as well as the energy wastefulness of those type of systems.

With big charging currents comes very rapid cell voltage rise so charge stop and quick energy movement would be the key to rapid charging without cell destruction, so this is a problem that needs to be addressed to make this chemistry viable for the future.

The long term aim has to be cell cycle life extension rather than the acceptance of lost cycle life from the norm if these cells are to be the basis of the house battery and traction battery all in one solution that is already becoming part of how energy storage is used here in Australia ..... plug in the EV to the house and solar and it becomes the main energy storage/supply point with a much smaller dedicated house battery to keep the system functioning while the EV is off doing its primary function.

Such a battery could revolutionise the whole cruising seen, both on the water and on the land, the same battery powers the house and the drive, no more fuel requirements accept for the occasional recharge if the solar/current/wind generation wasn't sufficient.

T1 Terry