New Battery Technology

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by rgleason

This thread is devoted to highlighting and discussing new battery technology and types that are promising and preferably in production.

One likely possibility is http://aquionenergy.com/
Stainless Steel, Cotton, Manganese Oxide Electrode, Carbon Titainium Cathode, and Saltwater. Very safe, long life, good partial state, sustainable, good temp tolerance, low power density and delivery, inexpensive. Good for solar, not for fast charging.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...oring-the-sun/

by Kevin Bullis

"Aquion’s batteries use sodium ions from saltwater as their electrolyte. Electrical current moves through this brackish liquid from positive electrodes based on manganese oxide to negative ones based on carbon. The batteries are large and operate slowly, but they are also manufactured cheaply, using repurposed manufacturing equipment. Last week Aquion announced $34.6 million in funding to help it scale up production."

"The batteries cost about as much as lead-acid ones, which are sometimes used now, but they last twice as long, effectively cutting the long-term costs in half (see “Demo: Storing the Sun”). Other long-lived batteries exist, but they cost far more than lead-acid batteries.
The new energy storage technology could be crucial to making renewable energy more viable, especially in remote locations. "


http://aquionenergy.com/technology/deep-cycle-battery/


July 21, 2017 that Aquion has “emerged” from Chapter 11 restructuring and bankruptcy.

These batteries, much like the Redflow batteries, are from solid ground no bouncing around installations, they don't handle vibration very well at all. Aquion technology itself is brilliant, the baby of Jay Whitacre the man who made LiFeP04 batteries understandable for the EV DIY market.

T1 Terry

[StuM]

Just read this on The Register and immediately thought of this thread.
https://www.theregister.com/2020/12/...ion_batteries/


"Lithium-ion had a lucky break early on. Successors will need billions of dollars to catch up – if they don't flame out first"
...

"There are liars, damned liars, and battery guys" – or some variation thereof – is an aphorism commonly attributed to US electro-whizz Thomas Edison. Edison's anecdotal frustrations remain valid today because scarcely a month goes by without a promised battery revolution, and scarcely a month goes by without that revolution arriving."

[T1 Terry]

If I had the $$ to outlay and a 24v system, I would go with the LTO chemistry, even though I install LYP chemistry systems. The next time I swap out the LFP cells from my plug in hybrid Prius, I will be fitting LTO cells to take advantage of the very fast charging and ability to accept the full regen capability, something well outside to scope of LFP and LYP chemistry cells. The added room and weight will be an issue, but I still think it will be well worth the downside for all the benefits gained.

As far as an RV or marine house battery ... if you have a monster alternator and belt drive that can handle the high output, certainly worth investigating the comparative costs. The LTO chemistry shines bright when very high current discharge and recharge are the expected use.

T1 Terry

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by rgleason

This looks like it might be a reasonable House Battery.
AltE Energy - KiloVault 2100 PLC 2100Wh 180 Ah 12V Advanced AGM Battery
$500 127lbs, Max charge 140a Recommended charge 100a, 22"x 5" x 12.6"



Does anyone have experience with them? Hits a lot of points.

Fast Charging.
Reduced PSOC problems.
No BMS needed as for LFP
Compatible with most alternators provided it has temp sensors and perhaps belt manager.
Price.

Faster charging only if you have a significantly bigger alternator, regulator and probably serpentine belts. Even then the savings are on the order of 30min going from 50% to 100% in 6-7hr. If you are starting at 75% you will probably already be voltage limited and will save no time at all and it will still take 4.5-5.5hr.

Down side to AGMs including CF versions, is that they all should regularly be charged at 0.3-0.4C if you are geting down to 50%. If you have a 400Ahr bank that means you should be charging at 120A minimum. If you have a significantly larger bank you will have a hard time ever feeding it the recharge rates unless you are on shore power and use multiple chargers.

If you get a Gel or FLA their MAX charging rates are in the 0.1-0.13 range. You would need to have a 1000Ahr bank or larger before your stock alternator couldn't meet minimum charging requirements. I don't even know if I've seen minimum bulk charging rates for either.

Trojan Solar Premium batteries claim to have almost as high a cycle life as Carbon Foam, but at half or less the price.
https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/So...tLineSheet.pdf

[rgleason]

Stu's For more info, see for example https://www.solar-wind.co.uk/off-gri...batteries.html
Victron battery at $250 looks pretty good, about 79lbs, but bigger than group 24.
I was looking for the actual faster charge rate in the spec sheets. Seems like it has been totally torture tested DOD many times.
It does not look to me like these batteries support a faster charge rate like Firefly .4C.

Adelie wrote re Kilovault Carbon
"..If you are starting at 75% you will probably already be voltage limited and will save no time at all and it will still take 4.5-5.5hr."
Good point, also they are heavy, 127lbs and two of them for 180ah is too much. Not a replacement for what LFP can do.


Also TI wrote they don't like vibrations and bounce, so not for us.

[rgleason]

OutBack Power NorthStar NSB100FT BLUE+ 100Ah VRLA-AGM Pure Lead Carbon Battery $320 Almost no limit on charge rate
See the bulk and absorption stage on page 15

Bulk stage is a constant-current stage. The charge current is maintained at a constant high level. The battery voltage will rise as long as the current flows. This battery has a minimum recommended charge current of (2 × I10-hour) with no maximum limit (per battery).

It will take 6hrs of charging to fully charge this battery, so these batteries require some solar to achieve Full charge occasionally. They can operate a PSOC ok.

• Weight: 74 lbs
• Dimensions H x D x W : 11.3" x 15.6" x 4.2"

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by rgleason

....
Adelie wrote re Kilovault Carbon
"..If you are starting at 75% you will probably already be voltage limited and will save no time at all and it will still take 4.5-5.5hr."
Good point, also they are heavy, 127lbs and two of them for 180ah is too much. Not a replacement for what LFP can do.


Also TI wrote they don't like vibrations and bounce, so not for us.

Not sure where you got that info, wasn't in my link, perhaps you were conflating a response to me with a response to someone else.

Mine was for Trojan. The link I had above shows:
SPRE 06 255, C20=229Ahr, 6v, 67lb each.
Plus data for different sizes and voltages.
https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/So...tLineSheet.pdf

So 229Ahr will weigh 134lb, not 180Ahr @244lb. For $178-214 each or $356-428/pair.

There's a local vendor in San Diego that deals mostly in deep cycle batteries. When I go my T-1275s they were the same or slightly less than any online advertised price so I'm pretty sure I could get them for the $178/ea price and wouldn't have to pay for shipping.


I looked up "Kilovault Carbon" and found a 12v AGM battery, 180Ahr @127lb. $525.
https://realgoods.com/kilovault-adva...y-12v-plc-2100.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Not sure where you got that info,...

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3310107
But the vibration part came from Ti Terry. Sorry.

Those Trojan SPRE 06 look solid to me, but aren't they a little high to fit in a normal battery box? 10.30 (262)7.13 (181)11.74 (298 )
They have "smart carbon" to address the PSOC problem which is good.
At 50% discharge they are rated at 2000 cycles.

I think the T105's are 10.38 x 7.13 x 10.88 high and they just fit in my standard battery case. I think the best price I saw was $135, but you have to "restore" to full charge regularly.

[Pegu Club]

We use a carbon foam agm type of battery that has very good characteristics such as an eighty percent depth of discharge, reasonably quick charging, lives well with PSC and sulfate issues, and has been on the market for a few years now, and is only slightly expensive. Our experience with them is into its third year, and they are operating as advertised in full time cruising use. The Firefly Group 31, We would recommend these as they are living up to expectations.

Fair winds,

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by rgleason

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3310107
But the vibration part came from Ti Terry. Sorry.

Those Trojan SPRE 06 look solid to me, but aren't they a little high to fit in a normal battery box? 10.30 (262)7.13 (181)11.74 (298 )
They have "smart carbon" to address the PSOC problem which is good.
At 50% discharge they are rated at 2000 cycles.

I think the T105's are 10.38 x 7.13 x 10.88 high and they just fit in my standard battery case. I think the best price I saw was $135, but you have to "restore" to full charge regularly.

My mistake, I was responding to your comment about fast charging times in general for AGMs rather than for the specific battery you linked to, didn't even notice the link so when I saw saw you quoting me as responding to the specific battery I couldn't understand where that came from. It was me not being observant.

Regarding, battery size. Sometimes you find a battery to fit the space. Sometimes you make the space fit the battery. On my boat, I chose to forego battery boxes. I have very limited space everywhere and it was a choice between skipping the boxes or a very severe compromise in capacity.

Whenever I get a larger boat I intend to build custom boxes for the batteries provided there is sufficient overhead in whatever location is appropriate. Short term effort and cost for long term gain and cost savings.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Whenever I get a larger boat I intend to build custom boxes for the batteries provided there is sufficient overhead in whatever location is appropriate. Short term effort and cost for long term gain and cost savings.

I think we are committed to keeping this boat. I've thought about trying to fit the batteries under the cabin sole, which would be ideal. I just need room for about 4 batteries lined up, but I would have to modify the top of the water tank by lowering it 4" in some areas.

With a full keel, I suppose I could try turning prismatic LFP on its side and shove them prewired in underneath along some guide rails to get 4S=200ah but that does not sound very "traditional" and it is a part of the bilge really.

Designers are challenged by gaining headroom in this exact area, and I am desperate for a good dry, easy to work in location for a new battery bank, preferably in the cabin. So it looks like I've got to sacrifice a precious drawer under a berth and run long heavy wires, unless I waterproof the port cockpit locker with compressible foam on the bottom of the lid (the opening does have deep drainage gutters) and keep the main bank right where it is.

If it weren't for the big grey boat dilemmas, what would we do? - Redesign the boat anyway?

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

We use a carbon foam agm type of battery that has very good characteristics such as an eighty percent depth of discharge, reasonably quick charging, lives well with PSC and sulfate issues, and has been on the market for a few years now, and is only slightly expensive. Our experience with them is into its third year, and they are operating as advertised in full time cruising use. The Firefly Group 31, We would recommend these as they are living up to expectations.Fair winds,

You need to tell us the name of these batteries if they are to be considered.

[Adelie]

Last sentence indicates Firefly G31.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Stu's For more info, see for example https://www.solar-wind.co.uk/off-gri...batteries.html
Victron battery at $250 looks pretty good, about 79lbs, but bigger than group 24.
I was looking for the actual faster charge rate in the spec sheets. Seems like it has been totally torture tested DOD many times.
It does not look to me like these batteries support a faster charge rate like Firefly .4C.

Adelie wrote re Kilovault Carbon
"..If you are starting at 75% you will probably already be voltage limited and will save no time at all and it will still take 4.5-5.5hr."
Good point, also they are heavy, 127lbs and two of them for 180ah is too much. Not a replacement for what LFP can do.


Also TI wrote they don't like vibrations and bounce, so not for us.

The vibration and bounce problems were in regard to the first post Aquion batteries and the Red Flow batteries that are a rebirth of the zinc bromine flow battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E...romine_battery first seen back in the '60 & '70 designed by an Australian lady in one of the top level universities.

Have the lead crystal batteries gained any traction over in the USA, the regime for getting them fully recharged virtually rules them out for anything but standby back up battery use.

T1 Terry

[rgleason]

Certain Trojan Trilliam LFP have CAN bus communication
Trilliam
Trilliam Gen1 Basic CAN protocal
Trilliam User Guide


There is a CAN communication channel for providing battery state to then control charging by the alternator. The Wakespeed WS500 has a CAN bus and will be configurable to properly charge these LFP using the BMS data.


I found a price of $538 for TR 12.8 92 from Missouri Wind