My universal build

[hezi973]

Hello sailors,

I have a 45' catamaran on order and my intention is to cruise the world with my wife and daughter. Given that this is my dream and not theirs, I need to make my family super happy or this may not work. My boat is nicely spec'ed with comfort feature etc. One thing I was investing thoughts into is my power systems. FYI, my boat is 230V 50Hz European style AC system.

Here is my built, I would really like to hear opinions. I suspect some of you will think it's an overkill but I hope to hear flaws or advise.

2 integrel generators on each motors.
2k solar array
48 v large Lithium bank to supply energy to inverters
12 v AGM bank (charging via alternators and DC to DC from 48V bank)

Primary grid is 230V 50Hz (power aircons, washing mashine, electric galley, dive compressor, water maker, etc. This grid start at 30 amp 50Hz shore power plug, run through galvanic isolator and reverse polarity warning. Than power the grid via two MultiPlus II 5kv. When on shore power, the inverter passing through power to grid and charge the 48v bank.

Secondary grid is 110V 60Hz (power small kitchen appliances, all my US devices, etc. This grid start at 50 amp 60Hz shore power plug, run through galvanic isolator and reverse polarity warning. Than power the grid via one MultiPlus II 5kv. When on shore power, the inverter passing through power to secondary grid and charge the 48v bank. While connected to a US marina, the primary grid will work off the 48V and the 2nd grid will mostly charge the bank.

I am taking delivery in France, crossing to the US, spend 1-2 years in a marina before I can go out cruising the world. Few things to mention, My 6 aircons are dual frequency. My washing machine and appliances are not. I will double most outlets to have French and US outlet plugs side by side in most parts of the boat. I doubles the charger inverter on the main grid to be able to handle a very energy demanding system. I am thinking with 3 inverters, I will have redundancy in the event of an inverter failure.

In this way I will be able to plug in most places in the world although I will be pretty much energy independent and planning to stay on the hook for the most part. I'd love to hear what you got to say about this design. I know it's not minimalistic but I want to be comfortable. Thank you all in advance!

[noelex 77]

It sounds like an awesome project. What brand of cat is it?

My only concern would be that complex boats can reach the stage where servicing and repairing breakdowns can become a full time job. In addition, repairs often involve diversions to busy destinations and waiting around in marinas, which defeats many of the reasons why we go cruising in the first place. One aspect of "comfort" that you need to consider is having enough time to enjoy the crusing lifestyle and new locations.

Troubleshooting, repairing and servicing equipment is not fun and every added system contributes to time and frustration over this.

[hezi973]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

It sounds like an awesome project. What brand of cat is it?

My only concern would be that complex boats can reach the stage where servicing and repairing breakdowns can become a full time job. In addition, repairs often involve diversions to busy destinations and waiting around in marinas, which defeats many of the reasons why we go cruising in the first place. One aspect of "comfort" that you need to consider is having enough time to enjoy the cruising lifestyle and new locations.

Troubleshooting, repairing and servicing equipment is not fun and every added system contributes to time and frustration over this.

It's a Fountain Pajot Elba 45. Install by the best outfit that did many installs before (in France). Like anything on a boat, things break. I am very handy and knowledgeable and I will be fixing things. I am less worried about that aspect. With Starlink you can get phone support from anywhere. Thanks for the reply!

[CaptainRivet]

Your system has several flaws:
First because its your dream providing kitchen and power like at home is never gonna work 100% and won't garuntee the admirals and daughters happiness along the way.
2nd an overcomplicated system will break and you drive yourself crazy to fix it (can you?) or let it fix. A new FP production boat will have problems and prepare yourself to have some bigger repair projects in the first year, adding to that a complex install doesn't make that better...

I would start with preparing them trough cleaning up your belongings and get new in 230V what you really need aboard. Its a big chance to get rid of old ballast and start fresh.

The 110V is just backup as you install mainly the charger of the multiplus to charge the bank and run 230V of the batteries, the 110V curcuit is backup when something breaks on the way and you cannot find 230V there. So keep that as simple and small as possible. One 110V inverter/charger, 2 plugs in kitchen, 2 in Salon and 1 per cabin, done.

Your solar array is too small, with Aircons and your power needs you need minimum real 3Kw better 4kw solar, otherwise the engines will run very often. You can reach this by installing solar wherever you can, make this your 1st priority on the project. Every watt you installed here is quiet, relaible, cheap and no maintenance energy.
First choice is directly after the travler on the roof use as big as possible fixed Bifacial solar panels only from top brands, My choice would be LG. You should be able to stick 5 panel with 500W each (LG 440W bifiacial deliver around 500W + in real life, they only rate front production), so 2,5kw done. Rest you most likely need semi flexible panel to stick on the roof so you can walk on them, take 50% of the rating for your total watt calculations, thats what they deliver max.

2nd your engine will only support one integrel system, then its maxed out, means the power that the integrel system takes off the engine. Also be aware the engine is heavenly loaded and will live shorter. Its also enough 1 integrel per engine for your power needs to recharge the bank. If you manage to stick close to 4kw solar you will need only the small integrel per engine, saves money and complexity.
They are freaking expensive anyway...
Is an integrel really necessary, i don't think so. you could just install additional 1 48V alternator per engine with a wakespeed regulator and you will be fine. That you can fix yourself, an integrel not....

Aircons: have 48V units and not 230V ones, that makes it possible to run them quiet often and makes you independent feom.the inverter. They are much more energy efficent then 230V ones.

12V AGM starter: AGM can get thermal runaway, worst lead chemistry for a boat. I would suggest 12V 35 or 40AH LTO battery, charge via DC2DC from 48V house and alternators with Nordkyn VSR200 regulator. Alternativly use Dakota lithium starter batteries. If you wanna stay lead here use at least optima battery with spiral cells here.

How big of a bank you wanna put, which brand?

[hezi973]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Your system has several flaws:
First because its your dream providing kitchen and power like at home is never gonna work 100% and won't garuntee the admirals and daughters happiness along the way.
2nd an overcomplicated system will break and you drive yourself crazy to fix it (can you?) or let it fix. A new FP production boat will have problems and prepare yourself to have some bigger repair projects in the first year, adding to that a complex install doesn't make that better...

I would start with preparing them trough cleaning up your belongings and get new in 230V what you really need aboard. Its a big chance to get rid of old ballast and start fresh.

The 110V is just backup as you install mainly the charger of the multiplus to charge the bank and run 230V of the batteries, the 110V curcuit is backup when something breaks on the way and you cannot find 230V there. So keep that as simple and small as possible. One 110V inverter/charger, 2 plugs in kitchen, 2 in Salon and 1 per cabin, done.

Your solar array is too small, with Aircons and your power needs you need minimum real 3Kw better 4kw solar, otherwise the engines will run very often. You can reach this by installing solar wherever you can, make this your 1st priority on the project. Every watt you installed here is quiet, relaible, cheap and no maintenance energy.
First choice is directly after the travler on the roof use as big as possible fixed Bifacial solar panels only from top brands, My choice would be LG. You should be able to stick 5 panel with 500W each (LG 440W bifiacial deliver around 500W + in real life, they only rate front production), so 2,5kw done. Rest you most likely need semi flexible panel to stick on the roof so you can walk on them, take 50% of the rating for your total watt calculations, thats what they deliver max.

2nd your engine will only support one integrel system, then its maxed out, means the power that the integrel system takes off the engine. Also be aware the engine is heavenly loaded and will live shorter. Its also enough 1 integrel per engine for your power needs to recharge the bank. If you manage to stick close to 4kw solar you will need only the small integrel per engine, saves money and complexity.
They are freaking expensive anyway...
Is an integrel really necessary, i don't think so. you could just install additional 1 48V alternator per engine with a wakespeed regulator and you will be fine. That you can fix yourself, an integrel not....

Aircons: have 48V units and not 230V ones, that makes it possible to run them quiet often and makes you independent feom.the inverter. They are much more energy efficent then 230V ones.

12V AGM starter: AGM can get thermal runaway, worst lead chemistry for a boat. I would suggest 12V 35 or 40AH LTO battery, charge via DC2DC from 48V house and alternators with Nordkyn VSR200 regulator. Alternativly use Dakota lithium starter batteries. If you wanna stay lead here use at least optima battery with spiral cells here.

How big of a bank you wanna put, which brand?

First of all, thank you for your lengthy reply. I value your opinion. At this point, I am set on my build. The disadvantage of it is cost, weight, and complexity, I am aware. New boat bugs will have to be dealt with regardless of my off grid power plans. I am very good with my hands and so far, I fix everything I own. I will need to learn Victron's whims, but eventually I will.
Integrel is a much better system compared to just two belmar 48V DC alternator. It is a smart system that draw engine power based on the engine demand. I have been talking to people that are using this system for several years and are very happy. BTW, I will use two integrel (for each motor). I am not sure why you said I will max it at one. The fact I have 3 inverters, means lots of redundancy. I am starting with 2kw solar, but may add more after my shakedown Atlantic crossing. My Aircons (all 6 of them) is an option I paid for and I will have to use the frigomar 230 V via inverter. The 48V one are identical except they have a build in inverter. my 48V bank is 28.8kw (6 x 24V 200ah) so plenty energy to run everything on the boat like at home.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by hezi973

First of all, thank you for your lengthy reply. I value your opinion. At this point, I am set on my build. The disadvantage of it is cost, weight, and complexity, I am aware. New boat bugs will have to be dealt with regardless of my off grid power plans. I am very good with my hands and so far, I fix everything I own. I will need to learn Victron's whims, but eventually I will.
Integrel is a much better system compared to just two belmar 48V DC alternator. It is a smart system that draw engine power based on the engine demand. I have been talking to people that are using this system for several years and are very happy. BTW, I will use two integrel (for each motor). I am not sure why you said I will max it at one. The fact I have 3 inverters, means lots of redundancy. I am starting with 2kw solar, but may add more after my shakedown Atlantic crossing. My Aircons (all 6 of them) is an option I paid for and I will have to use the frigomar 230 V via inverter. The 48V one are identical except they have a build in inverter. my 48V bank is 28.8kw (6 x 24V 200ah) so plenty energy to run everything on the boat like at home.

I highly suggest to do your research and also a real power calculation.
Things are different at sea then it seams from Sofa….
I am installing lithium since 20 years+ and liveaboard. just outfitted mine with 1200Ah Lithium, main charge source solar and those bifacials are a real game changer. Full electric galley…Just a portable gen as emergency backup and standard 115A Mitzi Alternators, don‘t need more…
Cheap, quite, sustainable, reliable, maintenance free, nothing beats solar. And 2kw on a Elba is a joke, you can fit double with right panel combination and solar arch…do it right from the beginning here.

One integrel creates up to 9kw of electricity, with typical efficiency as it’s still a 48V alternator (smart but it still generates heat) that’s in best case 13-15kw total power draw. And that draw comes from your engine, means substracted from your propulsion power. Assume you have the 65hp upgrade engine, well typically FP they are just enough in harsh conditions, not much overhead. Means you have 40hp or less left for propulsion with 1 integrel. And that one integrel puts a lot strain on the engine, especially the crankshaft bearings. Did you ask Volvo or Yanmar if you can even mount 2 integrel on one engine or warranty is voided?
Assume that’s not possible. 2nd 18kw from 2 engines are more then enough for your needs. Can you fix the integrel if it breaks, assume not.
4kw of solar and 1 integrel on one engine is enough for your needs
Important, DC AIrcon and not the standard 230V AC from FP, that’s your massive power honk. Yes you paid for your 230V AC which was Sorry to say a mistake and that’s the reason you need massive power…riding a dead horse. The efficiency difference is massive here.
Investing here in DC aircon is the best path….

A 48V balmar with wakespeed and REC BMS + Victron Cerbo is quite Smart too and much simpler, which you can fix yourself. Having a lot solar you don‘t need an integrel, that combo is enough if DC aircon.

[hezi973]

I have to admit your replay was educational and amusing as I am writing this sprawled on my sofa

Seriously, you make lots of solid points and I am glad you took the time to give me your input. You pointed out a bunch of stuff. Okay, 2k solar is just because this is the highest wattage offered by the company that does boat work in France I am planning to use. They already figured out the design for the 2k, they do clean quality work in very competitive prices. It is a compromise between size, weight, etc. Every owner that has this array is happy. I thought I might add more panels later on the sides if I will see the need. I am going to check if a larger arc with bifacial panels is an option. I'd love to her what is the latest and greatest. Yes, I agree with doing it right from the start but I am taking delivery in France and trying to make the best out of it. My boat is going to get lots of post factory work there by French companies that are working endlessly on new boats (FP alone produces a boat a day not mentioning Lagoon, Bali, and many others). I need to prepare it for ocean crossing and take advantage of all the vendors that offers exceptional work for much better prices. It would have been a different story if I would take delivery in the US and build it from scratch at my pace.

I know a man that bought a new Astrea and fit it with 48v Frigomar air cons post delivery (he has integrel and 48V bank I am planning to install). It is identical to the new air cons FP installs at the factory (they just moved away from Dometic) except the 48 v has an inverter that take 48v and turns it into 230v. In my case my multiplus will do the inverting. What other DC? Mabru don't make 48 v so now I am installing 12 volt Mabru throughout with heavy cooper cables. This will brake the bank and defeat the 48 v bank purpose.

I did take the 60 hp upgraded option. I think one integral void the engine warranty and integrel is picking where Volvo is voiding the warranty. Otherwise they will not sell their product. Integrel alternator is big, bulky, and require a special bracket to work with the Volvo. Two of them on one motor is not a viable option. To my understanding, the power draw and load it put on the engine is intelligently controlled based on power distribution between propulsion and energy demand. That's why they're so damn expensive.

So CaptainRivit, it's all about compromises. I been putting so many hours educating and learning these boat from Facebooks group, forums, YouTube, and talking to owners and vendors. I signed a contract 2.5 years prior to delivery (10 months to go) and I had lots of time to form this plan (from my sofa sometimes, I admit). Yes, I am sure it can be done cheaper, lighter, less complex, but I am getting land home like electrical grid and I will not need to think twice to use a dive compressor, electric galley, grill, and it comes with plenty redundancy. Again, thank you for your input!

[Statistical]

Sounds like an interesting project. The only thing that gives me pause is running both 230v and 120v on the same boat. That is twice as much stuff to fail, twice as much wiring.

Not trying to unsell you on Integral but wakespeed controllers do the same thing. So he is correct on that aspect. Integral is expensive because it is a turn key solution from a single company that does everything. I think what the prior poster forgets is not everyone is a DIYer. There are DIY solutions which are more modular and cheaper that do the same thing. It means the ability to fix your own system, rely on large communities, and make changes/upgrades over time. Not everyone wants that some people just want a boat where another company does everything and provides turnkey solution.

I do question on if you really need 4 Integral "generators" (alternators). I am sure Integral would love to sell you that given the impressively high pricetag but do you really need it. 2 alternators one per motor would still give you redundancy and still a **** ton of energy.

[hezi973]

I think you misunderstood. I don't know anyone who does 2 integrel per motor. 1 is plenty enough and 2 across 2 motors is plenty redundancy. Lithium work could be tricky with insurance companies. Some demand installation by reputable outfit or you will have troubles with finding coverage. Like I said before, it is all about finding the compromise that works for each situation.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by hezi973

I think you misunderstood. I don't know anyone who does 2 integrel per motor. 1 is plenty enough and 2 across 2 motors is plenty redundancy. Lithium work could be tricky with insurance companies. Some demand installation by reputable outfit or you will have troubles with finding coverage. Like I said before, it is all about finding the compromise that works for each situation.

Ah gotcha. Yeah that makes a bit more sense. 18 kW is still crazy power but a little less crazy.