Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

[arsenelupiga]

cnb, what is your plan B if one of winston cells fails ?

[CatNewBee]

buy a new cell...
but frankly, there are 2 small AGM spiral cell start batteries, that can be rewired to run the electronics, btw, motoring gives you 12V too, and there is a generator, that provides 9kW, plus the solar array. So I guess, no big deal, as long as there is fuel.

if the BMS fails, overriding it manually by the solenoids is a push button thing.

I can at any time wire a standard lead acid battery as buffer until I get a new cell, but this is very unlikely to happen... 7000 cycles lfe expectancy...

[KTP]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

7000 cycles lfe expectancy...

Lab conditions @ 25 degrees F

But anyway, that would be 19 years at 365 discharges per year. Assuming a 4% per year degradation due to age, the capacity would be down 40% at the 10 year mark.

[john61ct]

No, plenty of LFP installations for House usage, and following the lower-voltage care protocols, are now at 7-9 years with only a few % decline below rated capacity, never heard of one past single digits.

Of course those being ridden hard put away wet like an EV scenario may be completely used up long before then.

All depends whether or not you can coddle them.

[hellosailor]

I had heard (and no, I can't find the source) from at least one manufacturer that they did not recommend anything over 100A capacity on boats, supposedly because the batteries were not robust enough for the motions of a boat. But that just seems to be one of the many contradictory and ever-changing statements the chinese lithium vendors seem to make. (They all DO agree that they are making batteries, though. One thing they can agree on.)

And that securely reinforcing the cases, with solid "containment" so they cannot bulge or deform, is important. That's one other thing they tend to agree on.

it is a bold step but the more I hear about lithium batteries, the fewer real problems I hear about. Please do come back and post every few months to let everyone know how it is working out for you!

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

it is a bold step but the more I hear about lithium batteries, the fewer real problems I hear about. Please do come back and post every few months to let everyone know how it is working out for you!

it appears there is large demand for lfp winston batteries as one cant just buy them but need to wait in the queue. Lots of DIY seem to be going on and do not hear of incidents. So my confidence grows as well, as old gel batteries coming to an end.

CatNewBee is kind enough to share design details, and answer questions, which is great.

i like to be able to diagnose and fix if needed so my LFP will be very simple, in line with my electricity competence, meaning more manual intervention but rock solid as my background is technical too.

[hellosailor]

In the US, the Winston name is somewhat problematic. Their history with a split and patent rights arguments with one or two other companies, which I don't recall the unsettled details of. And their US distribution arrangement with Balqon, who I believe are long bankrupt now, but somehow they never managed to set up conventional or effective distribution in a market the size of the US and Canada.

Maybe they're happier with the shorter shipping distances to Oz. But in the US, I think any "shortage" is just because Winston hasn't figured out how to make or ship them yet.

Kinda like Elon Musk claiming he can reinvent the auto manufacturing business...and not being able to simply run an assembly line as well as Henry Ford did a hundred odd year ago.

[john61ct]

Australia's generally much higher costs for everything,

plus a **huge** caravanning demographic relative to the population,

which routinely spends what poor Americans consider silly money on equipment

much of it from deep and wide established supply chains direct to independent Chinese suppliers

and a few "can-do" informal local vendors, particularly the famous Mannum iconoclast,

while stateside, quality deep cycle lead banks at$1 / AH @12V, combined with

higher transport costs and

punitive torts liability

has meant a **much** faster take-up rate for routine LFP usage in Oz than in the US.

Many overseas vendors in alternative electrics don't even want to touch the US market, plenty of demand from the more advanced countries, not worth the trouble.

[KTP]

People in the USA will buy something when it gets mainstream. Case in point is the mania over Tesla model 3.

When you can go into a Costco and buy LFP, it will sell quite well.

[john61ct]

And by then the bleeding edge folk will be playing with a new much better chemistry.

[mbartosch]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

it is a bold step but the more I hear about lithium batteries, the fewer real problems I hear about. Please do come back and post every few months to let everyone know how it is working out for you!

To add some positive feeedback on the technology, our installation https://www.entropypool.de/engineering/ was done in 2015, followed by one year full time cruising.
No problems at all and great useability, LiFePO4 banks are just freaking awesome. I would do it again any time (and exactly as described in our Blog articles).

[hellosailor]

Dunno, John. A feeble attempt at web searching found a paucity of numbers but they wer on the scale of 22,000 "rv's" sold in Oz in 2014, versus nearly a half million sold in the US in each of the last couple of years. Even if those numbers are very wrong (different sources and definitions make that likely) the US still would not be a trivial market. And some of our manufacturers, even the big ones like Airstream, are offering lithium batteries now in order to fit the growing "light weight" market, where knocking 100# off the batteries is critical to the sale.
Liability...that's why we have throw-away corporate shells. I'm guessing there's more to it than that, i.e. it is simpler to cater to fewer larger corporate buyers, and that fills their capacity.
After all, Oz literally ate everything Elon Musk could throw into a "superbattery" and they were still pushing for more. That's a lot of folks "wanting" batteries.
Kinda like Fiat: First they went away for 20? years, then they came back and bought Dodge. Hmmm.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Dunno, John. A feeble attempt at web searching found a paucity of numbers but they wer on the scale of 22,000 "rv's" sold in Oz in 2014, versus nearly a half million sold in the US in each of the last couple of years. Even if those numbers are very wrong (different sources and definitions make that likely) the US still would not be a trivial market. And some of our manufacturers, even the big ones like Airstream, are offering lithium batteries now in order to fit the growing "light weight" market, where knocking 100# off the batteries is critical to the sale.
Liability...that's why we have throw-away corporate shells. I'm guessing there's more to it than that, i.e. it is simpler to cater to fewer larger corporate buyers, and that fills their capacity.
After all, Oz literally ate everything Elon Musk could throw into a "superbattery" and they were still pushing for more. That's a lot of folks "wanting" batteries.
Kinda like Fiat: First they went away for 20? years, then they came back and bought Dodge. Hmmm.

wasn't it chruisler, sold by daimler?

[hellosailor]

Since 2014, Fiat owns all of Chrysler. And Dodge. Daimler had bought into Dodge previously, which is how they make a MB Sprinter van still under license, but Fiat now owns Chrysler and Dodge alike, fully.

Like watching the walnut shells to see which one the pea is under, right?

[CatNewBee]

Short update

LFP are awesome. Now cruising and anchoring out 14 days down from France over Corsica to Sardinia.
No shore power, sailing most of the time, autopilot, radar all day on, very little use of the engines. The battery is always almost full at the evening, no matter what we cook, bake and we use any kittchen appliances, 3 fridges / freezer on deepest temp, daily running the watermaker for 1hr (100l), 1hr A/C in the evening, deepest discharge up to now 560Ah in the morning (64% SOC), no voltage drop whatsoever.

Wify really likes it too, its like shore power.

Amazing stuff, we like it.