Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

WAF (wife acceptance factor) is high, more functional and space better used by introducing the waste bin in the dead corner via a top hatch.

She feels more like home with the bigger electric appliances.

And Happy Wife, Happy Life... [emoji1]

for some reason i was convinced that top hatch is meant for beer storage.

This is even better

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

where is the battery then?

you see the battery poles of the 1000Ah cells aft at the top corner, drenched in black liquid rubber, the cells are where the original GEL battery containers have been before all the way below the installation board, on a plywood board above the bilge, 4 cells oriented along the hull with connectors aft, two 20mm laminated plywood walls at starboard and port, connected by M12 stainless steel struts keep the battery in shape and secure it to the bottom and the side wall. Above this is the plywood installation board what you see on the picture above with copper bars, fuses, solenoids, interface box, BMS, shunt and down below is the Lagoon switchboard with the original battery main switches and circuit breakers for the winches and windlass.

To protect the installation, another retractable plywood board was fitted, so the space behind the drawer can be used as storage while the circuitry is protected.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

for some reason i was convinced that top hatch is meant for beer storage.

This is even better

Yes, I fitted a big black waste basket hanging from top in the corner. Down below it there is plenty of space to store not so often used bottles like hydrochlorid acid, phosphate acid rust cleaner, spare detergents, polish / wax / epoxy / whatever you need to clean, fix or shine the boat and not need daily. So the space is used pretty well - access from top when you take out the bin.

The beer is in the cockpit fridge, you need easy access to it. [emoji1]

[CatNewBee]

Here a picture of a cross section for illustration

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

where is the battery then?

Here a picture of a cross section for illustration

The plywood walls / sections are all hanging and except of the storage shelfs - do not enclose the space around completely, so horizontal and vertical ventillation is quite good, it looks and is verry condensed, but there are the 2 big air intakes for the aircon on the side of the bed (in the middle of this skretch), so the A/C and the Quattro get plenty of air, the bilge is open and air can freely circulate around all components and structures.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Attachment 174165
you see the battery poles of the 1000Ah cells aft at the top corner, drenched in black liquid rubber, the cells are where the original GEL battery containers have been before all the way below the installation board, on a plywood board above the bilge, 4 cells oriented along the hull with connectors aft, two 20mm laminated plywood walls at starboard and port, connected by M12 stainless steel struts keep the battery in shape and secure it to the bottom and the side wall. Above this is the plywood installation board what you see on the picture above with copper bars, fuses, solenoids, interface box, BMS, shunt and down below is the Lagoon switchboard with the original battery main switches and circuit breakers for the winches and windlass.

To protect the installation, another retractable plywood board was fitted, so the space behind the drawer can be used as storage while the circuitry is protected.

Clever ! I will pinch many of your ideas .

As my old gel batteries losing it, tossing with idea to replace with the same, at around aud 2.4k and available 96 AH overnight.

Or to go LFP - simple version. This would include intercepting alternator and cristec charger and use manual switch under port bedroom for times when extra charging power is needed. And reprogram victron MPPT for lithium as solar produces enough energy most days even in winter for my modest needs - no 220 V consumers.

Then use winston 200 ah and GWL bms. And this would also cost ~ 2.4k and have available around 130 AH.

And if it works, add second 200 AH battery later on for redundancy.

DO you think LFP is worth extra effort ? Would you have any insurance issues because of DIY? For example every fire could be blamed on DIY so it really no point insuring boat any more except 3rd party.

[CatNewBee]

In my insurance policy is no section about changing installation nor a statement what batteries and materials must be used.

In case of a fire I guess there would be a survey, that need to proof, it was caused by the installation or even a faulty dessign, otherwise insurance can not claim anything. You always fix or replace essential things on board, do you lose your insurance by replacing a seacock or adding under water led lights or a downvision sensor, how about changing blocks or sheets of a different manufacturer, adding 3rd party sails or any other modification. What if you sink the boat when you repair a head and the hose slips off...

The installation is done according to the standards related wire sizes, breakers, monitoring and protection. The battery cells are all measured and controlledby the BMS in regards of voltages and temperature with alarms and shut downs.

So safety level is better than before. Lagoon has only one temp sensor on the first battery, fuses are introduced eventually on the poles but not consistently.

Frankly, I dont know what would happen if something happens, but it would be decided in a court based on evidence, as anything else.

What if you install solar and you have an fire on board, would your insurance not pay, because you have changed the wiring?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

In my insurance policy is no section about changing installation nor a statement what batteries and materials must be used.

In case of a fire I guess there would be a survey, that need to proof, it was caused by the installation or even a faulty dessign, otherwise insurance can not claim anything. You always fix or replace essential things on board, do you lose your insurance by replacing a seacock or adding under water led lights or a downvision sensor, how about changing blocks or sheets of a different manufacturer, adding 3rd party sails or any other modification. What if you sink the boat when you repair a head and the hose slips off...

The installation is done according to the standards related wire sizes, breakers, monitoring and protection. The battery cells are all measured and controlledby the BMS in regards of voltages and temperature with alarms and shut downs.

So safety level is better than before. Lagoon has only one temp sensor on the first battery, fuses are introduced eventually on the poles but not consistently.

Frankly, I dont know what would happen if something happens, but it would be decided in a court based on evidence, as anything else.

What if you install solar and you have an fire on board, would your insurance not pay, because you have changed the wiring?

if insurance dont want to pay you, will request bill for all modifications that could cause fire and will verify that this person was authorised to perform changes. And will get you on this.

My boat was also modified by first owner, so I am really questioning whether insurance is just money throw away.

Have been advised by very experienced sailor to ask authorised surveyer to check small gelcoat crack and confirm it is not structural as insurance would use my post ( was asking for advice) as a proof there was crack , in event boat broke from mooring.

If this logic is used for gelcoat cracks why not for electrical and anything else?

If one uses this approach, cost & time of maintenance becomes beyond ridiculous. Alternative is to use third party insurance only.

[CatNewBee]

By the way, what is a third party insurance?

In my policy there are damages covered and others excluded, it is a big catalog.
Not all possible situations are covered anyway, and it is explicitly explained, what risks and in what sailing area to what extent are included and what is not covered. They state explicitly what they will not cover - so it remains my own risk.

There are different packages, 3rd party liability, environmental costs, attorney costs, damage or loss costs for the own vessel etc.

I can understand, that the insurance will not pay for damages on my modifications, (e.g. for the lithium battery), but they will pay for the original installation.

If I want the new stuff to be covered, I may could ask to increase the coverage sum and probably end up making a survey to prove the value, but this is not the point. The boat is insured by its value as purchased, and that is the amount the insurance will have to pay in a case of a total loss according to the contract.

I can accept, that my modifications are my own risk and the insurance will not cover costs to restore my modifications after an accident, but only cover the restoration of the damage to the manufacturer standard (e.g. pay for GEL batteries only). Thats pretty much OK for me.

[CatNewBee]

But this is a technical thread, not a legal or about insurances...

According to your statements you should not fix or do any refit, modification, addition or repair on a boat. This is simply not the reality. If I look at the marina, there are plenty of DIY works done all the time.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

But this is a technical thread, not a legal or about insurances...

According to your statements you should not fix or do any refit, modification, addition or repair on a boat. This is simply not the reality. If I look at the marina, there are plenty of DIY works done all the time.

All I am saying, read tiny print and be prepared to defend your position. At some point that becomes too tedious... Back to technicals.

I have disconnected house battery charging from alternator to see what happens as preparation on LFP.

Engine battery has started charging at 14.6V immediately after I turned on engine - checked from panel next to navigation table. 14.6 seem a bit high.

Do you see same voltage ?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

All I am saying, read tiny print and be prepared to defend your position. At some point that becomes too tedious... Back to technicals.

I have disconnected house battery charging from alternator to see what happens as preparation on LFP.

Engine battery has started charging at 14.6V immediately after I turned on engine - checked from panel next to navigation table. 14.6 seem a bit high.

Do you see same voltage ?

I have not tested the alternator voltages yet, but they are disconnected anyway by SOC monitoring from my Victron BMV earlier - so a non-issue for the LFP bank. The shore power legacy charger go to 14.6V, my start batteries are AGM spiral cells, so this high voltage is appreciated for full charge.

I have not altered anything, that was before installed and configured, my design uses old technology to a certain point (at the moment starts below 90% and ends above SOC 95%).

LFP Battery has around 13.4V at this cut-off point, no danger at all. Then the legacy systems continue to charge the start batteries only. Main source for my LFP house battery (and configured to LFP profile) are only the 100A solar MPPT controller and the Quattro inverter/charger in case I use the genny or shore power.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I have not tested the alternator voltages yet, but they are disconnected anyway by SOC monitoring from my Victron BMV earlier - so a non-issue for the LFP bank. The shore power legacy charger go to 14.6V, my start batteries are AGM spiral cells, so this high voltage is appreciated for full charge.

I have not altered anything, that was before installed and configured, my design uses old technology to a certain point (at the moment starts below 90% and ends above SOC 95%).

LFP Battery has around 13.4V at this cut-off point, no danger at all. Then the legacy systems continue to charge the start batteries only. Main source for my LFP house battery (and configured to LFP profile) are only the 100A solar MPPT controller and the Quattro inverter/charger in case I use the genny or shore power.

ok, sounds good. I have dual AGM starting batteries that ask for 14.8 V charging. so 14.6 should be okay but no more than 24 hours. Alternator charges house battery at 14.1 V. This splitter seem to know how to alter voltage to 14.6 and to 14.1.

Long motoring sessions may damage batteries, so i guess alternating motors once per 12 hours or so, would probably lesser that danger.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

This splitter seem to know how to alter voltage to 14.6 and to 14.1.

Long motoring sessions may damage batteries, so i guess alternating motors once per 12 hours or so, would probably lesser that danger.

Wait wut?

Link to this "splitter" please

And long motoring sessions should never damage your batteries.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Wait wut?

Link to this "splitter" please

And long motoring sessions should never damage your batteries.

splitter:
https://www.cristec.fr/english/our-p...ery-isolators/

i am assuming hitachi alternator is dumb and does not decrease voltage even after several days of motoring.

Start battery expects up to 24 hrs of 14.8V as part of charging. Not sure what after that. After 6 years start batteries seem in top conditions, so not worried. Whatever it does, seem good enough.

[john61ct]

Those mosfet isolators are voltage following just like VSR / ACR but one-way.

They have very little voltage drop like old-school diode-based ones used to.

But they don't modify voltages for different batt types, that requires a DCDC charger.

And thar is rarely needed.

As for Starter batts, constantly charged by a dumb alt does no significant damage, especially if FLA, just keep water topped up.