Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 15 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 23-06-2022, 13:24   #826
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 18,001
Images: 2
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aybabtme View Post
Apologies for not watching the video, short on time. Couldn't glance exactly what his setup is from the comments, but it seems like they have some circuit to disconnect the lead from the LFP so that both banks get charged to their target voltage independently? If so then I wouldn't see a problem with that. Personally I used battery-to-battery charger to maintain a starter battery from my LFP pack, I didn't want the problem I described before to occur.

Here was a hybrid system FLA/LFP proposal/thought experiment, which I was considering at one time. It became clear that the discharge of the LFP to the FLA was not inconsequential, and the FLA resistance will increase as the FLA battery gets fully charged, thus depleting the LFP faster.
rgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 13:34   #827
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
Images: 3
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

I’ve said it 1000 times , placing LA in parallel with Li simply because you couldn’t be bothered to install field coil switching on your alternator is madness.

Set up your charging from all sources to charge your lithium bank directly , charge other batteries via battery to battery chargers such that each bank type has optimised charging
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 13:40   #828
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Afloat - Mediteranean
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 387
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

@CatNewBee Would you still go with the RECBMS if you were doing your install today ? Or is there something else worth serious considseration.

Especially considering the new ABYC Lithium requirments comming out. (Alarm before cut-off etc)
Catapault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 13:44   #829
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Afloat - Mediteranean
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 387
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I’ve said it 1000 times , placing LA in parallel with Li simply because you couldn’t be bothered to install field coil switching on your alternator is madness.
Don't belive anyone mentioned 'not being bothered' or anything to do with Alternators ?

Managing alternators (I have two) seems, to me, to be one (of many) important aspects of a Lithium install.
Catapault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 13:45   #830
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Afloat - Mediteranean
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 387
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Do a clean lithium install, not worth it to run zombies in parallel. They will be dead when you need them, you won't notice in advance, as you would use all the time the power from the LFP.
That would be ideal, but the budget may not permit. May need to start small (400AH), and go up from there, after lots of learning !.
Catapault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 14:08   #831
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
Images: 3
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
Don't belive anyone mentioned 'not being bothered' or anything to do with Alternators ?

Managing alternators (I have two) seems, to me, to be one (of many) important aspects of a Lithium install.
The poster described a system where AGMS where left in circuit to handle BMS disconnect of the alternator. This is back to front thinking

If your alternator is set up to charge your lithium’s it will have a remote disconnect facility , that’s not rocket science. Hence you then charge your starters , other LA batteries using battery to battery chargers from the lithium , no worries about parallel charging issues. Each chemistry has independent charging profiles that suit that chemistry.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 14:34   #832
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,787
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
Having just had sticker shock at replacing our 4 x 260 AH Tubular Gel's with equivelent AGM, I'm taking another serious look at Lithium !.

Comming out of winter this year, our (now 4 year old), LEOCH Tubular Gel's have had a massive drop in capacity. Not even lasting overnight with just house loads. (~ 160w) before they crater to 11.4v or so.

So time to give this all another serious look.
Here is a chart Adelie did up a couple years back that will help you decide how to go .
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	battery lifetime cost comparison.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	373.7 KB
ID:	259891  
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 14:39   #833
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,787
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The poster described a system where AGMS where left in circuit to handle BMS disconnect of the alternator. This is back to front thinking

If your alternator is set up to charge your lithium’s it will have a remote disconnect facility , that’s not rocket science. Hence you then charge your starters , other LA batteries using battery to battery chargers from the lithium , no worries about parallel charging issues. Each chemistry has independent charging profiles that suit that chemistry.
I'm setup just the opposite my 75 amp alternator charges my grp24 fla start battery and a 60amp b2b set to charge my lfp 250ah bank. Protects my alternator from potential overheat and sudden disconnect. ( was the best cheapest option for me ) 99% of my lfp charge is from my solar .
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 15:11   #834
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Afloat - Mediteranean
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 387
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The poster described a system where AGMS where left in circuit to handle BMS disconnect of the alternator. This is back to front thinking

If your alternator is set up to charge your lithium’s it will have a remote disconnect facility , that’s not rocket science. Hence you then charge your starters , other LA batteries using battery to battery chargers from the lithium , no worries about parallel charging issues. Each chemistry has independent charging profiles that suit that chemistry.
Still in design phase, but I likely wouldn't do it this way. I'd probably plan for each Alternator to charge its own Starter battery directly, and then charge the LFP bank via a dedicated charger. (Such as a Victron Orion).

This is primairly for redundancy reasons, Can take the engines out of circuit of anything to do with the house bank, and they continue to operate on their own, just fine. Redundancy, and ability to split systems to reduce dependancy is important to me.

Secondary, The alternators needing to charge the lithium will often be the more unusual case. The Solar (existing 3.6kw nominal) will do most of the work there, backed up by the existing 11kva Generator/Charger in the Quattro.

Note: Alternator charging is certainly desired (why waste any power), and keeping things topped up on passage is certainly important. Definitly something I'll integrate, but most likley as a tertiary charging source and one that may often be just left disconnected from the house bank.
Catapault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 15:13   #835
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Afloat - Mediteranean
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 387
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
I'm setup just the opposite my 75 amp alternator charges my grp24 fla start battery and a 60amp b2b set to charge my lfp 250ah bank. Protects my alternator from potential overheat and sudden disconnect. ( was the best cheapest option for me ) 99% of my lfp charge is from my solar .
As above, this is the way I'm leaning. (Though I have 2 engines, Catamaran)
Catapault is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 15:53   #836
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,651
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
I'm setup just the opposite my 75 amp alternator charges my grp24 fla start battery and a 60amp b2b set to charge my lfp 250ah bank. Protects my alternator from potential overheat and sudden disconnect. ( was the best cheapest option for me ) 99% of my lfp charge is from my solar .
Given the cost of those B2B chargers I wonder why you bothered if you get 99% from solar

We don't use alt either, tried it once and killed it.
And even though we have a big solar array, we also have big usage so during winter, solar alone struggles.

Still considering running instead a 5kva Mecc Alte generator head "Cruise Gen" wired into the Victron inverter charger for 120amps @ 24v whist underway.
All our cruise miles are at a set rpm range

Next size up from this
Genset supplier here in Oz does them with dual pulley for around $400
https://www.ebay.com/itm/132203171861
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 15:53   #837
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
Images: 3
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
I'm setup just the opposite my 75 amp alternator charges my grp24 fla start battery and a 60amp b2b set to charge my lfp 250ah bank. Protects my alternator from potential overheat and sudden disconnect. ( was the best cheapest option for me ) 99% of my lfp charge is from my solar .
From a cost and efficiency perspective your system isn’t optimum , starter batteries require very very little charging and hence can easily be charged by small low cost b2b chargers. Redundancy can be handled by manual overide switches if required

Domestics ( in this case typically the Li battery ) require frequent often considerable charging and its best that all available power sources including alternators are optimised for this. B2B charging from starter to Li ( or worse again , just parallel LA and LI ) needs careful configs to ensure the starter isn’t accidentally run down , or overcharged as the alternator voltage needs to trigger the B2B charging only.

So by not integrating the alternator into the Li system , like all other charge sources , you end up with a less then optimal system , with more inefficiencies and for, high power B2B, Greater expense.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 15:57   #838
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
Images: 3
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapault View Post
Still in design phase, but I likely wouldn't do it this way. I'd probably plan for each Alternator to charge its own Starter battery directly, and then charge the LFP bank via a dedicated charger. (Such as a Victron Orion).

This is primairly for redundancy reasons, Can take the engines out of circuit of anything to do with the house bank, and they continue to operate on their own, just fine. Redundancy, and ability to split systems to reduce dependancy is important to me.

Secondary, The alternators needing to charge the lithium will often be the more unusual case. The Solar (existing 3.6kw nominal) will do most of the work there, backed up by the existing 11kva Generator/Charger in the Quattro.

Note: Alternator charging is certainly desired (why waste any power), and keeping things topped up on passage is certainly important. Definitly something I'll integrate, but most likley as a tertiary charging source and one that may often be just left disconnected from the house bank.
Fine , clearly you don’t realky need alternators at all but this config is not the norm I suggest. Many people rely on alternator recharging
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 16:06   #839
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,651
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Given the cost of those B2B chargers I wonder why you bothered if you get 99% from solar

We don't use alt either, tried it once and killed it.
And even though we have a big solar array, we also have big usage so during winter, solar alone struggles.

Still considering running instead a 5kva Mecc Alte generator head "Cruise Gen" wired into the Victron inverter charger for 120amps @ 24v whist underway.
All our cruise miles are at a set rpm range

Next size up from this
Genset supplier here in Oz does them with dual pulley for around $400
https://www.ebay.com/itm/132203171861
We currently have a 7kva Genset which does the charge and 240v hot water system at same time but, the Genset has some years on her and needs money thrown at it at some stage and, the hot water system is way bigger than it need be so at end of life will be replaced with a 25litre model vs the 180 litre we have.
10 minutes of heat up vs 1.5 hours.
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-06-2022, 16:09   #840
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,787
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Given the cost of those B2B chargers I wonder why you bothered if you get 99% from solar

We don't use alt either, tried it once and killed it.
And even though we have a big solar array, we also have big usage so during winter, solar alone struggles.

Still considering running instead a 5kva Mecc Alte generator head "Cruise Gen" wired into the Victron inverter charger for 120amps @ 24v whist underway.
All our cruise miles are at a set rpm range

Next size up from this
Genset supplier here in Oz does them with dual pulley for around $400
https://www.ebay.com/itm/132203171861
Must recall I am an old navy engineer. The 200 bucks for my 60 amp b2b which a lso has an integrated 30 amp mppt so it's a backup just incase. And 200 is cheap insurance.
Also a 1500 watt generator to run my 2512 inverter charger if needed fully adjustable from 1 to 120 amp output and yes voltage is fully adjustable as well.

I am a real proponent of redundancy. Solar / wind/ alternator and generator to run charger.if ever needed. I don't want to be powerless due to any equipment failures.
I like my cold soda and ice cubes.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
electric, galley

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Winston 700Ah lithium cells Drelen General Classifieds (no boats) 16 23-09-2019 18:04
Has the all-electric galley come of age? Jammer Cooking and Provisioning: Food & Drink 166 06-12-2018 10:26
Specific Question about Voltage of LiFeYPO4 Cells JoeFish Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 11 18-06-2014 18:08

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.