Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/elec...jimmy-cornell/

good read for some e-propulsion proponents, when reality hits dreams.

Hey CNB, from that article it looks like the big problem was the daily draw of cooking and water making for five people (as well as 2 fridges, electric winches, and all the other usual loads) and the regen and 1kW of solar panels not making enough to keep up with that demand.

I’m looking to switch to electric galley when I install my LFP system, but am starting to get worried about the amount that will draw through daily use. I’m told it’s about 150-200 Ah (12V) daily for two people. Is that your experience?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

For that i would go hydro before adding more solar.
https://www.wattandsea.com/en/produc...ydrogenerators
The new pod600 looks promising for cats

The regen system is already hydro via the 2 props, adding additional hydro slows them even more down and doesn't work, oceanvolt would have added a more aggressive regen props if they could,they know their stuff...
Adding as much solar as they can fit is the only zero emission solution that works additionally to the regen...2 superwind or d400 wind gen wpuld be a good add on too additionally to solar for cloudy but windy days...

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

The regen system is already hydro via the 2 props, adding additional hydro slows them even more down and doesn't work, oceanvolt would have added a more aggressive regen props if they could,they know their stuff...
Adding as much solar as they can fit is the only zero emission solution that works additionally to the regen...2 superwind or d400 wind gen wpuld be a good add on too additionally to solar for cloudy but windy days...

Except the watt & sea is not I repeat not a regeneration system it is a designed hydro generator .
You should read the links i posted. Avoids lots of confusion.

[aybabtme]

I think any successful electric propulsion projection will have to rely on multiple sources, no single one. Solar is just much easier to beef up. Especially if you start making custom panels that follow the shape of surfaces to cover, instead of putting fixed size large rectangles where they can fit.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Except the watt & sea is not I repeat not a regeneration system it is a designed hydro generator .
You should read the links i posted. Avoids lots of confusion.

The regen part of the oceanvolt via the props is a hydro gen too.
As the watt&sea is a pure hydro gen it can be better optimised then a prop doing propulsion and regen of energy. Adding additional hydro makes no sense but adding different zero emission charge possibilities like solar and windgen is the right solution....

[ronstory]

@CatNewBee

Great install!

I was looking at bigger cells and was considering the 700Ah Winston and the 1000Ah versions for a 12v pack. The 700ah versions have the advantage of being symmetrical from a terminal standpoint so making the series connection and just a matter of rotating the cells during assembly.

The 1000ah have the terminals on one end and it looks you would need to put them "nose to nose" to make the series connection which make for a long batter pack. Did you install nose-to-nose or did you just make custom cables?

I went thru the thread and didn't see a pic, but if I missed it apologies in advance.

[CatNewBee]

4 x 1000Ah cells in a row, custom made bus bars / bridges from solid copper rod 30mm x 5mm square, easy to connect, on one side are three plus on the other 3 minus terminals. just a short bridge from one cell to the other.

[ronstory]

Ok, got it now. Thank-you!

[CatNewBee]

A short update on our ocean crossing....

The first Day we had to motorsail, to get around the island, then we had about 8...18kn from stern, so we made some progress between 6 and 8kn SOG. After we've got out of the shade from the Canaries islands, we had some good NE wind 16..20kn, and could stay on Parasailor for 4 days, then the wind shifted to NNE and we switched back to Code0 and main, and during the night to Genoa and Main, we had some squals with windshifts and gust to 26kn. On day 4 the impeller of the genny gave up and needed to be replaced - the only repair we had to make under way.

On day 7 and 8,the wind shifted further N, so we had only 70% Genoa and Reef2 in the main, making 7..8kn SOG, wind 24..30kn NNE (beam reach), also long waves of 3m from the side, 20..24°C, and squals with some light showers kept us busy, then the weather settled, wind 21...12kn easterly, back to Code0 and Main with 1 reef.

Then we reached the duldrums, the weather changed, the low front passed by and we had only 4..6kn Wind, we used some squalls to make some distance, but finally gave up in the evening, set the anchor light and all alarms on RADAR and AIS and got the sails down, had a great sleep. We have not seen any vessel during the last 9 days. This repeated 4 more days, we baked christmas cookies, had a movie night with popcorn in the cockpit with the beamer, cooked, baked, fished, swam in the middle of the calm ocean... Like a Christmas vacation at anchor.

Finally the easterly trades come slowly back. It started with Northerlies, so Code0 and main with 6..12kn TWS at the beam, what moved us slowly at 5..6kn SOG, the wind increased the following days to 12..15kn N, sowe made some progress at 6..7kn. Easy sailing, 3m waves NE, so kind of following seas. We had this for another week to day 20, we sailed and fished, no other boats around, sunshine and some clouds, 26..28°C, nice sun rises and sunsets, some squalls with rainbows, very long smooth waves about 1.5m, easy going.

The last 4 days we were back on Parasailor, trade winds 12.. 20kn dead downwind running at 6..8kn SOG, 25..28°C, small squalls.

After 24 days at sea we arrived in the night / early morning in St. Martin, dropped the anchor and relaxed.

During the whole passage we saw 4 vessel on AIS, 2 of them in sight, most during the last 200nm. We caught a Yellofin tuna, a Skip jack Tuna and 5 Mahi Mahi, all fish above 1m in size, we had great sushi, tuna steaks and Mahi meals. We sailed about 2800nm and motored only for 7h, we had to run the generator frequently to recharge the batteries, make water and hot water, cook and bake etc. It was often either overcast or the sails shaded the solar panels, so we cannot rely on solar, also the crew was really not in water saving mood, we had our daily hot showers and produced a mess in the galley to fight boredom, created fancy meals, baked cakes and cookies, variations of bread and on and on, run the washing machine and whatever... We run the watermaker in total for 63.5h, producing 6350l of fresh water for the crossing or 265l per day. Other boats make the whole passage with 300l of fresh water...

We run a 4h watch schedule, so everybody was 2 times per day on watch and had a chance of an continous 8 hours sleep (3 person), so we were not exhausted at all after the 24 days, it was just like normal sailing.

Great lazy passage, as we wanted it.

Easy check-in too, I have been in contact with the authorities prior departure and after arrival, the copy of the Zarpe from Gran Canaria as proof of sea time, the 24 days at sea in an bio-secure environment and a declaration of the captain, that no crew showed any symptoms on passage was sufficient to allow us on land, the customs clearing on a (EU) French island comming from EU (Canaries) was just filling out a form on a computer in the chandlery. We also made a daily temperature log during the passage - just in case they wanted more details on our health status, so all was fine and no C19 tests or quarantine required upon arrival.

Some statistics
- 24 days at sea from Las Palmas to Saint Martin,
- 7h on the engines (14l Diesel) for 2800nm,
- 47.6h in total on the Onan generator (94l Diesel) - so a total of
- 108l diesel for the whole passage or 4.5l/day.
- genny used about 2h/day to charge 500Ah, make water, hot water

Having a partly bored crew, the passage turned in a cooking and baking tournament and having all electric galley with all the toys to play, that meant a huge total consumption of 327kWh on the passage,

- 91kWh comming from solar
- Solar yelded in average 3.8kWh/day, not too bad.
- 236kWh from the generator, that produced in average over 5kW - quite efficiently.

- 63.5h on watermaker in total
- produced and used 6350l of fresh water for showers, dishes, laundry, toilets.
- average water consumption 265l/day,
- total energy for water making about 63kWh.

- Freezer and 2 fridges consumed (18..23A) about 6.5kWh during the passage
- instruments, autopilot, vhf, radar..., maybe another 6kWh.
- Hot Water (1.2kW element, 1h/day) accounted for about 30kWh,
- 220kWh were used on laundry, induction cooking, baking every day fresh bread, baking christmas cookies, cakes, entertainment...

Crew has a weight problem after the passage and needs some exercise... [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

A short update on our ocean crossing....

The first Day we had to motorsail, to get around the island, then we had about 8...18kn from stern, so we made some progress between 6 and 8kn SOG. After we've got out of the shade from the Canaries islands, we had some good NE wind 16..20kn, and could stay on Parasailor for 4 days, then the wind shifted to NNE and we switched back to Code0 and main, and during the night to Genoa and Main, we had some squals with windshifts and gust to 26kn. On day 4 the impeller of the genny gave up and needed to be replaced - the only repair we had to make under way.

On day 7 and 8,the wind shifted further N, so we had only 70% Genoa and Reef2 in the main, making 7..8kn SOG, wind 24..30kn NNE (beam reach), also long waves of 3m from the side, 20..24°C, and squals with some light showers kept us busy, then the weather settled, wind 21...12kn easterly, back to Code0 and Main with 1 reef.

Then we reached the duldrums, the weather changed, the low front passed by and we had only 4..6kn Wind, we used some squalls to make some distance, but finally gave up in the evening, set the anchor light and all alarms on RADAR and AIS and got the sails down, had a great sleep. We have not seen any vessel during the last 9 days. This repeated 4 more days, we baked christmas cookies, had a movie night with popcorn in the cockpit with the beamer, cooked, baked, fished, swam in the middle of the calm ocean... Like a Christmas vacation at anchor.

Finally the easterly trades come slowly back. It started with Northerlies, so Code0 and main with 6..12kn TWS at the beam, what moved us slowly at 5..6kn SOG, the wind increased the following days to 12..15kn N, sowe made some progress at 6..7kn. Easy sailing, 3m waves NE, so kind of following seas. We had this for another week to day 20, we sailed and fished, no other boats around, sunshine and some clouds, 26..28°C, nice sun rises and sunsets, some squalls with rainbows, very long smooth waves about 1.5m, easy going.

The last 4 days we were back on Parasailor, trade winds 12.. 20kn dead downwind running at 6..8kn SOG, 25..28°C, small squalls.

After 24 days at sea we arrived in the night / early morning in St. Martin, dropped the anchor and relaxed.

During the whole passage we saw 4 vessel on AIS, 2 of them in sight, most during the last 200nm. We caught a Yellofin tuna, a Skip jack Tuna and 5 Mahi Mahi, all fish above 1m in size, we had great sushi, tuna steaks and Mahi meals. We sailed about 2800nm and motored only for 7h, we had to run the generator frequently to recharge the batteries, make water and hot water, cook and bake etc. It was often either overcast or the sails shaded the solar panels, so we cannot rely on solar, also the crew was really not in water saving mood, we had our daily hot showers and produced a mess in the galley to fight boredom, created fancy meals, baked cakes and cookies, variations of bread and on and on, run the washing machine and whatever... We run the watermaker in total for 63.5h, producing 6350l of fresh water for the crossing or 265l per day. Other boats make the whole passage with 300l of fresh water...

We run a 4h watch schedule, so everybody was 2 times per day on watch and had a chance of an continous 8 hours sleep (3 person), so we were not exhausted at all after the 24 days, it was just like normal sailing.

Great lazy passage, as we wanted it.

Easy check-in too, I have been in contact with the authorities prior departure and after arrival, the copy of the Zarpe from Gran Canaria as proof of sea time, the 24 days at sea in an bio-secure environment and a declaration of the captain, that no crew showed any symptoms on passage was sufficient to allow us on land, the customs clearing on a (EU) French island comming from EU (Canaries) was just filling out a form on a computer in the chandlery. We also made a daily temperature log during the passage - just in case they wanted more details on our health status, so all was fine and no C19 tests or quarantine required upon arrival.

Some statistics
- 24 days at sea from Las Palmas to Saint Martin,
- 7h on the engines (14l Diesel) for 2800nm,
- 47.6h in total on the Onan generator (94l Diesel) - so a total of
- 108l diesel for the whole passage or 4.5l/day.
- genny used about 2h/day to charge 500Ah, make water, hot water

Having a partly bored crew, the passage turned in a cooking and baking tournament and having all electric galley with all the toys to play, that meant a huge total consumption of 327kWh on the passage,

- 91kWh comming from solar
- Solar yelded in average 3.8kWh/day, not too bad.
- 236kWh from the generator, that produced in average over 5kW - quite efficiently.

- 63.5h on watermaker in total
- produced and used 6350l of fresh water for showers, dishes, laundry, toilets.
- average water consumption 265l/day,
- total energy for water making about 63kWh.

- Freezer and 2 fridges consumed (18..23A) about 6.5kWh during the passage
- instruments, autopilot, vhf, radar..., maybe another 6kWh.
- Hot Water (1.2kW element, 1h/day) accounted for about 30kWh,
- 220kWh were used on laundry, induction cooking, baking every day fresh bread, baking christmas cookies, cakes, entertainment...

Crew has a weight problem after the passage and needs some exercise... [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]



Attachment 231761

Nice writeup of your passage and power usages.
3 section duty is great but even better if you can run the same 4hr watch on a 4 section to rotate the watch so as to not get in a rut . . But that takes at least one more crew to feed and water.

And anything is better than port and starboard.
yes even solo is better.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

A short update on our ocean crossing... ...Great lazy passage, as we wanted it.

Wow! that's a hugely detailed update, thanks!

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

...We sailed about 2800nm and motored only for 7h, we had to run the generator frequently to recharge the batteries, make water and hot water, cook and bake etc. It was often either overcast or the sails shaded the solar panels, so we cannot rely on solar, also the crew was really not in water saving mood, we had our daily hot showers and produced a mess in the galley to fight boredom, created fancy meals, baked cakes and cookies, variations of bread and on and on, run the washing machine and whatever... We run the watermaker in total for 63.5h, producing 6350l of fresh water for the crossing or 265l per day. Other boats make the whole passage with 300l of fresh water...

I guess this mostly covers it from an energy use point of view, thank you

I see the generator was still required, and that is to be expected on passage.

With the boat in operation 24 hours a day, and as you said nobody in the mood to save anything, in fact even the opposite because of some boredom.

I've also crossed in a fast 50ft mono with all the crew having at least 1 if not 2 hot showers per day - this level of comfort on a normal cruising boat is not to be undertstated during long passages. Basically it means normal life can continue.

Although I guess with so much sailing perhaps a hydrogenerator would be helpful? Watt and Sea suggest that something like 16 to 30Amps @12V DC could be generated at 6 to 8kn of boatspeed.

I guess that might give you the 500Ah per day that the generator produced (on top of your solar) but only in ideal conditions.

At 6kn boatspeed you would still have a deficit - what was your actual average boatspeed for the entire crossing?
(and if I'm getting my numbers approximately right, apologies for any errors).

A Watt & Sea isn't cheap. In light of the numbers, and maybe even still needing to run the genset, what are you thoughts, and would you still consider adding it?

I suppose without so much "galley entertainment" it would be more feasible even still including all of the other comforts.

THANKS again for the very detailed report

[CatNewBee]

We made on average days 140...150nm, so about 5.8...6.25kn

Regarding the hydrogenerator, maybe it could have provided some of the recharge, but the genny did more in parallel directly (making water on 220V, other 220V appliances) so to compensate this it won't be enough.

I am happy to have the folding props to reduce the drag, the fishing lines are sea anchors enough... I dont want to deal with it, i mean how often are you on a passage with steady speed to actually deliver some juice? Simply makes no sense, too expensive, too little use - we are most of the time at anchor somewhere.

236kWh are in 13.4V equal to 17600Ah, at 16A output it would need 1100h or 45 days and nights steady speed.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

We made on average days 140...150nm, so about 5.8...6.25kn

Regarding the hydrogenerator, maybe it could have provided some of the recharge, but the genny did more in parallel directly so to compansate this it wont be enough.

I am happy to have the folding props to reduce the drag, the fishing lines are sea anchors enough... I dont want to deal with it, i mean how often are you on a passage with steady speed to actually deliver some juice? Simply makes no sense, we are most of the time at anchor somewhere.

236kWh are in 13.4V equal to 17600Ah, at 16A output it would need 1100h or 45 days and nights steady speed.

Nice sailing, good enjoyable speeds.

Hydrogenerator - lagoon tried this with L 420 and it was reported boat could manage 5 kn in a blow with this things making energy. Basically if you have boat without hydrogenerator and be properly reefed in say 20 kn of wind, then with hydrogenerator one would have to shake 1 reef or 2? to keep the speed and accept having too much sails on. Really rigging would take extra beating. Not good idea.

[jmh2002]

Thanks again for more info. I have similar thoughts and for a future boat would like in general to reduce and protect as much as possible the underwater elements of the boat.

There just seems to be so much debris out in the water now unfortunately, even if it is from nature - many boats have been having problems with sargasso weed too in recent years.

Yes the hydrogenerators always seem great until you really drill down into the numbers and find that maybe the cost vs benefit isn't as expected.

And on top of all of this it still makes sense to have some form of genset capacity anyway as a backup, even if it's big alternators on the propulsion engines, so why not just use this backup as part of the overall package in the first place.

I think it's sometimes possible to end up with too much equipment, trying to account for all the niche situations in the 'best' way, but after spending more and adding more weight too.

There needs to be a middle balance somewhere.

[jmh2002]

PS: in case you missed it here is another new electric cat project just being launched after quite some time in the build process. It will be interesting to see the results.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...an-245537.html

https://www.youtube.com/user/vu360/videos