|
|
26-07-2020, 14:27
|
#541
|
Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,787
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga
and then lightening strike comes damaging electronics in unpredictable ways.
maybe voltage sensor gone and then overcharging.....
dont you think this is dangerous and better to disconnect batteries physically?
|
Not in my part of the world. We rarely get lightening and even then im always in the water and have lightening protection. Much higher possibility of lightening strike when im doing my winter cruising.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
|
|
|
26-07-2020, 14:30
|
#542
|
Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,787
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrinus
Cat, be careful.
The batteries do care about SOC when stored.
It might not matter for you as you seem to be living the life - where you wont go to long term storage.
Its well documented that storing batteries at full charge reduce lifespan pretty quickly.
Theres more data out there, but Mainsail has done some controlled experients where a 100Ah cell lost as much as 11% over a year.
Seems 30 to 40% is optimal storage SOC.
Interesting that you go to 13.8V. That's my 100% SOC.
Pieter
|
That does apply to lifepo4 but i haven't done rhe reserch on lifeypo4 they may have a different profile due to the differing chemestry i defer to cat in this
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
|
|
|
31-07-2020, 07:41
|
#543
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
What I can say, I did it my way, Boat was in the water left alone in a Marina from September to May, and the batteries were OK when I returned on board. They still have their full capacity.
But you can choose your settings as you like and feel comfortable with.
I wanted at least 70% to be sure, the bilge pumps can go indefinitely if necessary and solar can keep the batteries up during the winter. No shore power connected.
|
|
|
26-08-2020, 08:10
|
#544
|
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Bahamas
Boat: Lagoon 400 S2
Posts: 8
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee
A lot of questions.
I have 4 ML RBS solenoids, 2 on the load side connected to the battery in parallel via fuses (one dedicated to the Quattro and one for anything else) controlled by the BMS Load relay,
2 for the charge bus in series, the first to the battery controlled by the BMS CHARGE relay, and the other in series to this, controlled by the BMV configured as charge relay (separate diagram)
All this is on the same circuit board.
D1 and D2 are protection diodes built in into the relays used. Coincidently the relay coils are around 1.2..1.5kOhm at 12V, so they work also as resistors for the LED and use only 10mA to hold the contact. That was the reason there is not a model number on the plan. You can use any general purpose 12V diodes like 1N4001 or similar if you use other relays, you may need an resistor and put the led with it in parallel to the coil if your relay has a much lower resistance. That would be the two you miss in the diagramm (R8, R11), they were there in the original plan, but then simplyfied and saved 20mA.
The transistors are also random NPN with sufficient current to drive the relays. I chose them because I had them laying around, but any one similar will do. R1, R2, R9, R12 are 15 Ohm, you also can use 1A fuses instead or simply leave them away. They are sacrificial and meant to limit the current to 1A in case of a accidential shortcut to protect the contacts of the bms relays and the print relay contacts. The real currents here are few mA charge current for the capacitors, they are 250mW types and would not survive long time currents of 1A to ground. Just a fuse that limits efficiently to 1A.
R3, R4... are resistors of 1.5 kOhm, limiting the current trough the diodes to 10mA to make them light up efficiently.
|
CNB as COVID restrictions have lifted enough here, I ventured out on the weekend to purchase components to build the same interface you built. Once I got to the store I realized I don’t know/understand all that I should.
For the multiple resisters needed (1k5, 2K and 15) I had a choice of wattage. Can you confirm I should get the lowest wattage available which is 0.25 Watt?
For the 100 microfarrad capacitors the closest voltage this store had was a 10 Volt and a 16 Volt, they did have higher voltage as well, however, I would think I would want the 10 Volt versions. Can you please confirm the voltage I should use?
Thanks,
|
|
|
26-08-2020, 09:52
|
#545
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetterDays 2020
CNB as COVID restrictions have lifted enough here, I ventured out on the weekend to purchase components to build the same interface you built. Once I got to the store I realized I don’t know/understand all that I should.
For the multiple resisters needed (1k5, 2K and 15) I had a choice of wattage. Can you confirm I should get the lowest wattage available which is 0.25 Watt?
For the 100 microfarrad capacitors the closest voltage this store had was a 10 Volt and a 16 Volt, they did have higher voltage as well, however, I would think I would want the 10 Volt versions. Can you please confirm the voltage I should use?
Thanks,
|
0.25W are perfectly OK, there is no high current going through. I would get 25V capacitors, a little higher safety margin, but 16V would work too. The cells can in theory be charged / initialized to 4V (16V), so 25 is just on the safe side, almost same price.
You buy Capacitors usually with a Voltage rating above the expected Voltage.
|
|
|
04-09-2020, 09:25
|
#546
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 129
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Thanks for pointing to this thread CatNewBee. Very educational and fascinating.
|
|
|
08-09-2020, 17:12
|
#547
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Italy
Posts: 55
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
CNB thanks for sharing info about your system. I am building a LiFeYPo4 system for my boat too and I will use 4x400Ah Winston cells (4S) and the REC ABMS but I don't know what HVC/LVC relay to use.
The Lithium house bank will be charged by a Heavy-Duty large frame Alternator and the Victron Multiplus at first, I still don't have solar power.
I know you and many people use the bistable Blue Solar ML-RBS.
Does the REC ABMS need of your wiring diagram to control a Bistable relay?
What about the "REC BI-STABLE LATCHING RELAY DRIVER", do I need it?
I haven't seen the "REC PRE-CHARGE UNIT" on your system, don't the bistable relays need of it?
Thanks!
|
|
|
09-09-2020, 03:33
|
#548
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Answered and discussed it a couple of times before, but here is the summary.
To drive the ML-RBS 7700 bi-stable relays by low power impulses only you need the interface in my diagram.
You can drive them directly connected too, but then they will not gonna sleep, the input is powered and causes about 100mA current flowing (10 times more than with the interface).
There ar tons of other options for solenoids, including monostable relays (Kilovac, BlueSea,...) that may or may not require current amplification either by a transistor, FET, or an intermediate relay, they all cause permanent current flow when switched on.
The bistable Interface unit from REC is not suitable directly for the ML RBS, the BlueSea require a positive impulse, the interface unit produces negative switching impulses, so you again have to invert the impulse by another relay, transistor or FET. Going with their recommendations for a relay may be the easiest way, but requires the bi-stable driver and 2 relays per solenod, the unit itself also draws some small current all the time.
There are also battery protect SSR or other contactless semiconductor switches that can be used, it depends on the currents you want to switch, and their direction.
The pre-charge unit is only good if you make a proper design and use it with a separate solenoid ONLY for the inverter, otherwise it is useless.
I don't have one and I don't need one. The capacitors are charged the very first time by connecting to the battery by a manual switch with prior closed relay contacts. Subsequent switching within an hour or so does not cause any big sparks any more, the capacitors don't discharge that quickly, so firmware upgrates and reboouts of the BMS do nor cause trouble to the contacts.
The solenoid is there to disconnect on deep discharge like a fuse, in normal conditions it never switches anyway the pre-charge unit has no meaning when switching off under load, it delays only the switching on, by allowing first a low current to get the capacitors charged.
And this is the big mistake most do, they use the precharge unit on the house bank output connected to the 12V loads on board. Any load turned on on board would consume this small current, so nothing left to charge the capacitors of the inverter, making it an expensive box with no function.
|
|
|
09-09-2020, 08:04
|
#549
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Italy
Posts: 55
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Really thanks for the detailed answer!
So the best way is to use Bistable Relays. The Blue Sea ML-RBS are really great. Do you think I should buy a smaller Bistable Relay for my 400Ah Lithium house bank? I was watching the Tyco Electronics BDS-A that are 260A continuos current and 1500A peak.
Would your diagram work the same using the Tyco Electronics BDS-A?
But maybe it's better to use the Blue Sea ones since you can even control them manually.
How did you set the relay on the BMV-712?
|
|
|
09-09-2020, 15:32
|
#550
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Federico993
Really thanks for the detailed answer!
So the best way is to use Bistable Relays. The Blue Sea ML-RBS are really great. Do you think I should buy a smaller Bistable Relay for my 400Ah Lithium house bank? I was watching the Tyco Electronics BDS-A that are 260A continuos current and 1500A peak.
Would your diagram work the same using the Tyco Electronics BDS-A?
But maybe it's better to use the Blue Sea ones since you can even control them manually.
How did you set the relay on the BMV-712?
|
I don't know the Tyco relays and what currents they require.
For the BMV, it is exactly the same, on the same control board, just another channel. Btw, it is in the schematic diagrams in this thread too, post #8...
I like the ML RBS, especially the possibility to use them as manual switches if necessary and the very low signal current they need.
|
|
|
09-09-2020, 19:25
|
#551
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Italy
Posts: 55
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Thanks, now I've understood the diagram.
But I wanted to ask:
- If the UVP ML-RBS is switched off from the BMS due to cells low voltage, how can you charge the cells using the Quattro?
- Is it possible to plug the Inverter/Charger directly on the ML-RBS Load relay? What are the advantages of using a seperate ML-RBS for the Quattro?
- What would be useful to control through the BMV-712 Relay on a boat with (actually) only Alternator and Inverter/Charger as power sources?
|
|
|
10-09-2020, 04:14
|
#552
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Federico993
Thanks, now I've understood the diagram.
But I wanted to ask:
- If the UVP ML-RBS is switched off from the BMS due to cells low voltage, how can you charge the cells using the Quattro?
- Is it possible to plug the Inverter/Charger directly on the ML-RBS Load relay? What are the advantages of using a seperate ML-RBS for the Quattro?
- What would be useful to control through the BMV-712 Relay on a boat with (actually) only Alternator and Inverter/Charger as power sources?
|
Battery is charged by solar, it will recover automatically next day.
Shore power legacy battery chargers are still connected to the charge bus via the legacy charger solenoid, they will charge the battery in case there is Shore power or generator power and the charge switch is on on the control panel. They have multiple isolated charge channels and charge the start batteries too. On my davits I still have the Lagoon solar array 450Wp with an old PWM controller with AGM profile, it can be controlled by the legacy sources Solenoid too. most of the time it is shaded, but it can contribute up to 50Ah per day, otherwise it is just sun protection for the dinghi.
Low voltage cut off on the solenoid will never happen, the Quattro load side is controlled earlier by the opto coupler interfaces, and there are no other loads that can drain the battery that deep over night - except maybe bilge pumps.
You always can push the button on the ML RBS to override the BMS, so you can manually reenable the bus and charge with the quattro if you want to. Same for all other control logic.
The separate ML RBS for the Quattro is justified by the fact that the Quattro can draw up to 500A short time, and there are other potential high current loads, like the Mastervolt inverter 200A, winches each 120A, Windlass 120A etc. It makes sense to have separate solenoids.
It is also an easy way to isolate the Quattro for maintenance or repairs from the rest of the house.
|
|
|
11-09-2020, 01:57
|
#553
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 161
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Your pimping the Quattro with the already existing inverter is an interesting idea.
Can this lead to problems with Victron Quattro or Multiplus, as Victron says? I have opened a discussion about this: Problems with Victron Powerassist / Upgrade inverter capacity
|
|
|
11-09-2020, 02:28
|
#554
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulstue
|
No, it works as it should. You have to limit the input current too, to not overload the Mastervolt inverter. I do it automatically by a Finder 220V relay on the output of the Mastervolt, that creates a 12V signal at the digital input on the Quattro, a macro then sets charge current to 0 and input current on that AC input to the maximum current the MV can provide (8A continous). The Quattro is conservative on those limits, it stays then around 7A. If the signal is gone (MV off) , the limit goes back to 16A for the shore plug and the charger current is unlimited again (220A).
The Generator also works with power assist and power control (30A), but because it is the only source on that AC input, a fix value is set. It makes sense, because you charge and run excessive AC loads when the generator is running, the limiter prevents shutdown and regulates the charge current down before generator overloads, or even assists with the inverter if necessary.
[emoji12] I am not pimping the Quattro, I am using the features it offers in a creative way within the specs...
Btw, a friend of mine has a professional All Victron LFP + 2 Quattro 5000 in parallel configuration installation on his large Privilege. Was very expensive, and it worked for a week or two, then the Quattros shut down and could not be bring online to parallel, did not sync. It took him an year and a lot of marina stays to fix it, they tried FW upgrades, replaced wires, done a lot of reboots etc, finally they replaced both units and put a manual override switch to switch the generator directly to the boat bypassing the inverters when the Quattros fail again.
I would have done it in the first place after the failure, but it was a pro installation and he has warranty, so he called them around the Med to fix it and had less fun during the season.
|
|
|
11-09-2020, 03:01
|
#555
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2015
Boat: Lagoon 450 F
Posts: 161
|
Re: Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...
Victron denies this. You are not using the device as intended by the manufacturer, thus loss of warranty.
Some of my expressions are inaccurate, sorry, foreign language. But at least you know what I mean, that counts.
Is the macro and the relay necessary or just a precaution or to avoid having to set it manually each time? As far as I understand the manual, can these settings also be made via Bluetooth or Colorpanel? My hope is to be able to do without generator and shore power as far as possible after the conversion, so this would be the basic setting. But after the phone call Victron is out anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|
|
|
|