LTO Battery as the perfect starter/bowtruster battery

[CaptainRivet]

Hi guys,


while researching the most efficent solar panels for my boat I came across a a quite new battery technology LTO = Lithium titanate Oxid which was extremly expensive but now gets in a range where it is the perfect starter and bowtruster battery (for a liveaboard/bluewater cruiser) with...build it, dump it in and forget about it



positive:

- min. 20000cycles , typical 30000 means 30 years+ lifetime

- operation temperature: -20 till + 60 celcius

- with approx 10% capacity loss and reduced C-rate to 0.5/1C or 50% loss with 5C: till -50 degree celcius

- charge rate : 5 C till max 10C (10 C with a very small reduction in life, expect min 18000 and thats plenty enough
- discharge rate: 10C
- DOD: 80% but possible to 100% with a very small reduction in life
- ultrasafe, you can drill through the battery: no fire, no thermanal instability or overheating
- no thermal under/overvoltage protection needed, discharge to 0V cell voltage and charge, no problem (little reduction in life span)



safety test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUYbSDEy6I

explanation video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8EBI-N0KTk

good review of pro/cons, be aware he is reviewing it for a solar power bank

:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1xildSl4Hk

well as everything it has also negative sides:
biggest downside: the max cell voltage is 2.8V nominal/full but at "operational" level (10% till 80%DOD) at 2V-2.3V in operation, which means 5 cells are 12V nominal but effective 10V-11V in 95% of operation. 6cells are 15.8V ...15,8V will kill some 12V gear
much better with 24V as 11 cells are 25,6V which works and operation is 24V

cell balancing: only starting/happening at 2.75V of 2.8V so if battery is fully charged, so you cannot just charge set it to 90%DOD max. and get 2.3V or with 6cells 13.8V

high costs: with grade B or used cells a 5 cell 12V 40AH with BMS costs you 400$ or 6 for 460$ or 30AH for 350$ but taking a life of min 15years (its used) into account its acutally super cheap

efficency: 80-85% means Lead Flooded acid level
weight: 20% more then a comparable LiPo4





looking at the above this LTO is not suitable at the moment (in 5 years i assume it will be) for a battery house bank but it is the perfect starter and bowtruster battery.
All the positive points garantuee it just works the next 20years, just dump it in and forget about it.

and the negative points besides don't count here:
- starter and bowtruster don't care if they get 15,8V, 11V or even 9V, they just use a more current but a 40AH LTO delivers 400A which is tons of overhead...if you have 200hp engine take 2x40AH which is 800A

- efficency: well its just a 40AH battery, so that loss is not significant at all
- 30AH or 40AH or 2x 40AH (for a bigger engine or bowtruster) is plenty capacity for the typical usage of a starter or bowtruster
- 40AH at 5 C =fully charged form DOD 80% in 30min



What do you think?

[john61ct]

I think it might be "the perfect" chemistry for building a House bank, if the per-Ah cost can be brought down.

Link to good sources please?

Especially for arctic conditions, and energy density not a concern. Crazy potential lifecyle longevity, basically no longer a consumable, but a once-off capital investment!

Also for deep discharge and fast charging. . .

I think so few BMS support its unusual voltages (5S to get nominal 12V) that inexperienced users DYIing their own system will likely have a very steep learning curve, with little support available from the community.

Pioneers, arrows etc. . .

I think for a Starter batt use case this becomes a hobbyist "for the fun of it" science project

and that is wonderful, would encourage those as much as possible so we can all experiment and learn together,

but as such needs to clearly be labeled "for battery geeks only!"

At least safety concerns are at least as low as with LFP, unlike the fire-prone chemistries people mess around with, second-hand cylindricals and ex-EV packs.

Boom bad

[CaptainRivet]

point is for a pure starter battery you don't need any BMS.


paralell (all 5 or better) 6 cells for 24h, then put them all in series and charge them. Build the battery by putting the 6 cells together like you want with bus bars in cubic case or connect them in a line like a pipe.

And drop it in instead of the lead acid.


A victron charger/inverter (and most modern units of other brands too) has the abiltity that you can set the PTO parameter for the starter battery to charge them properly and you are good and forget the starter battery.


yes without a BMS it will loose a bit of its lifespan of 30years....25years then...or just 10years.

you wanna optimse that back to 20000cycles=30years, get it out once a year, dismantle it, put all cells in parallel for 24h, take it apart again and mount back in series, put it in your case and done.

All perfect compared to the change of it every 3-4 years latest which always fails in worst conditions...


for me not only for battery geeks but for everyone who wanna go in remote areas or long time off grid.

[CaptainRivet]

I found some more interesting facts and data about the LTO Yinglong 40AH cells in some videos, especially a bulgarian guy measure the battery with proper battery test equipment.

6 40AH cells in series make a 13,8V 40AH battery which can deliver

- 1749 CCA (peak)
- 1400A for 4 sec constant discharge works and NOT damaging the battery at all
- 400A continous discharge over 5min works, Voltage drop with full battery 0.3V and close to 80% DOD it drops by 1V

[hzcruiser]

It certainly sounds like an interesting variation of the LFP style batteries; it comes down to gathering experience over the next few years to tell if the marketing / spec sheets can be trusted.

[john61ct]

LTO has been around for a long time, just never hit the mainstream, even less so than LFP, so little support.

6S is way too high voltage for many House consumers, but fine as a Starter batt, just never heard of that as a use case for LTO

11S for 24V is perfect

Toshiba Super Charged Ion Battery (SCiB) is the only version I've seen consistently good reports on long term, sometimes you see guys selling a pallet load from ex-medical equipment.

[Rapanui]

The beauty of a 6S LTO battery is that unlike LFP, you can float charge indefinitely at normal Lead battery charging voltages, This means they are ideal for use with 'dumb as bovine poop' standard internally regulated alternators fitted to marine diesels. They also would make a good fit and forget windlass battery. They also don't mind being left at 100% charge and can be charged and discharged at extremely low temperatures, both of which are LFP weaknesses.
The downside is that they are bulkier and heavier than LFP.

They are being used for electric buses because they can take enormous charging currents (10C+) to recharge very quickly. Cannot really imagine a charger capable of recharging a bus in 6 minutes though.

[john61ct]

I can. Not on a boat though 8-)

For loads that are OK with 16-17V charging, OK go direct with 6S, but then you need DC buck converted circuits for the rest.

5S gives a (maximum) top charge setpoint of 14.25V, and a very healthy LVC of 11.0V

That really is right in line with most devices designed for lead at 12V nominal.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

They are being used for electric buses because they can take enormous charging currents (10C+) to recharge very quickly. Cannot really imagine a charger capable of recharging a bus in 6 minutes though.

Yes, that´s right. There is no other battery chemistry besides super capacitors that can handle this high charge and discharge rate,
That is why Elon musk from Teslar bought Maxwell Technologies


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...er-210146.html

Well, here is the rest of the story......

Yinlong energy acquired the international leading LTO core technology by stockholding US Altairnano technology Co., Ltd.
彩89彩票手机app下载| Yinlong > Advantage >

Here You can see who is sitting in the driver seat
https://www.marketscreener.com/ALTAI...88196/company/

Yeah, Karen Werner, 63 years old - receiving a check for signing the checks but I am sure not a lot more
https://www.marketscreener.com/busin...M-E/biography/
This is a Chinese company in Reno Nevada with a USA Flag and controlled by the red dragon

Connections : Altair Nanotechnologies, I
CANON INVESTMENT HOLDINGS LTD.
ZHUHAI YINTONG ENERGY CO., LTD.
GUANGDONG YINGTONG INVESTMENT HOLDINGS GROUP CO. LTD.
ZHUHAI GUANGTONG AUTOMOBILE CO., LTD.
ZHUHAI YINLONG NEW ENERGY LTD.

Like I said in the year 2018 > FOLLOW THE MONEY

Will be interesting how this thing plays out.

Getting to the subject:

The higher the battery pack voltage the better it will match

What I have not discovered yet. Who is the manufacturer of this 55 Amp LTO battery if Yinlong controls all the LTO technology ?

https://www.kokpower.com/kok-power-e...ttery_p77.html

However they sell the Yinlong original Ref 66160 35 amp

https://www.kokpower.com/original-yi...cell_p150.html

Here are all the official modells from Yinlong but there is no such 55 amp cylindrical model.

Yinlong new energy Altairnano ess guangtong > Product > Battery >

Here is their a LTO 12 V - 5 S configuration - 100 amp pack with 35 amp batteries, BMS and the ......

Features:

Faster charge: 10mins fully charged
Higher discharge rate: Up to 10 C
Wide working temperature range: -50°C ~ 65°C
Super long cycle life: over 30,000 times


Specifications:

Nominal Voltage 12V

Nominal Capacity 100 amp

Max. Charge Current 100A

Continuous Discharge Current 100A

Peak Discharge Current 200A

Full Charged Voltage 12V(2.4V per cell)

Charge Cut-off Voltage 14V (2.8V per cell)

Discharge Cut-off Voltage 7.5V (1.5V per cell)

Net Weight 19.64kg

Dimensions 380(410)*245*150(193)mm

https://www.kokpower.com/12v-100ah-l...made_p173.html

Seems the 5 S configuration is the way to go for 12 V systems


Another mystery.... the Model REF Nº 66160 is the same for ALL 30 - 35 - 40 amp batteries.

In the year 2018 I could trace KOK POWER with this company Shenzhen Yirui Technology Co., Ltd. in relation to their 48 V standard pack for building blocks used for the buses in China. I suspect that´s gotta be the HOT PACK were all the used batteries are coming from that are flooding the market.

How many times do these batteries get charged every day @ 10 C rate ?

See here..... under the big photo the last small photo to the right is such a 48 V pack

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...6fe138d4JY4fQJ

Whatever ?¿?..... looks like a serious pack design and they got this all figured out while we are still fishing.

Seems to me in the big market of commuter and city buses where numbers are calculated to a life expectancy of 10 and 20 +years the ones who control LTO technology are the winners while other technology can not compete. I think here the LTO batteries with a rated life of 30.000 cycles are the cheapest option by far.

In regards that also means those LTO batteries will last longer then our diesel engines besides all the other high power demand applications.

[Rough Magic]

Fascinating. Watching. 🙂

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

Well, here is the rest of the story...
...
Full Charged Voltage 12V(2.4V per cell)
Charge Cut-off Voltage 14V (2.8V per cell)

Huge gap there, would be interested to see the Ah / SoC mapping delta between thos two points.

Especially since stopping at 12.0V seems "coincidental", while going to 14.0V is no problem for existing nominal 12V rigs.

Obviously with 10000+ cycle lifetimes, coddling to get max longevity becomes a moot issue, much more so than with LFP.

@warrior90, how about applying your forensic search skills to the Toshiba SCiB lines? I don't care about the IP issue so much, but market availability, sales channels pricing and quality reputation. . .

[rocks]

In mid 2019 we replaced 2 x 400 A 24v AGM’s with 1 x 24v 520 A LTO set of batteries. No need for BMS used but had to use cell balancers. Currently charging at 300 amp form alternators when underway and 80 amps from solar. The cells are arranged 11 in parallel with finishing voltages of 28.2 v. The battery volts sit above 26 volt when under load. Charging at 300 amps the LTO’s remain cold.
I am thinking of replacing staring batteries with LTO's as well.

We have enough power to makie 150lt of water per day. All cocking is no longer on gas, using induction. Can fill two dive tanks per day.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rocks

In mid 2019 we replaced 2 x 400 A 24v AGM’s with 1 x 24v 520 A LTO set of batteries. No need for BMS used but had to use cell balancers. Currently charging at 300 amp form alternators when underway and 80 amps from solar. The cells are arranged 11 in parallel with finishing voltages of 28.2 v. The battery volts sit above 26 volt when under load. Charging at 300 amps the LTO’s remain cold.
I am thinking of replacing staring batteries with LTO's as well.

We have enough power to makie 150lt of water per day. All cocking is no longer on gas, using induction. Can fill two dive tanks per day.

Sounds great. What raw cells did you exactly use, where did you get them? Could you please post some photos of the setup, very interesting.
Yes with 24V its s bit better regarding the useable capacity then 12V with these 2.3/2.8V LTO cells.
12KWH of LTO is a monster.
What make/model of boat do you power with that?

[s/v Jedi]

So, what is the self discharge rate? And the charge/discharge efficiency rate?

[rocks]

This is the battery setup in the workshop for testing. Ended up using 4 x 35mm leads between each strings.