LTO Battery as the perfect starter/bowtruster battery

[Whatta Life]

I have a business that buys lithium batteries . Closeouts , liquidations , old stock, used ,etc . About 4 years ago Altairnano closed a warehouse and we bought all the inventory . probably 50,000 Lto cells from 11ah to 67ah . Most were new in boxes but pallets and pallets were engineering test samples , early prototypes , test modules and lots of odds and ends . It was like Christmas . But No one knew about LTO . When we started selling them everyone said BS they won't do what you claim . Won lots of free beer on those bets . Once word got out and a few people used them sales exploded . I sold to battery makers , MIT , solar guys .What became the biggest market was competition car audio guys . Nothing in the audio world compared to LTO .These guys built systems that pulled 5,000 plus AMPS !

Of all the different Lithium I have personally used LTO is my favorite . I want to share some experience here to help others . It has been a few years since I have done testing so I'm going to round some numbers off .

First don't use 5s for a 12v system , 6s is about perfect . Lto holds 90% of its capacity between 1.9v and 2.40v . Yes 2.8v is max charge but there is very little up there . Just like LFP , max charge is 3.65 but very little above 2.4v. So your working voltage is 11.4 to 14.4v . The audio Guys would change their alternators to 15v to get a little more out but 14.4v is fine . Lto can be discharged to 0.0v . There was a study that discharged to 0v and stored for 1 year . Charged after that and showed no loss of capacity . So you don't have to be concerned with discharging too low . I use them in my classic cars and have completely discharged them many times . They still work great . On My center console 2 of the motors have lto , The third outboard/house is still AGM .When you turn on the battery switches the 2 are resting above 14v and the agm 12.9 . When you start them the lto motors turn over much faster . A fellow boater that has big diesels and a large stereo was interested but sceptical . I had him hook up a small 20ah battery to one of the diesels and try to start it . His comment was it started quicker than the Odyssey 31agm he was using . He bought a lot of LTO .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I think it might be "the perfect" chemistry for building a House bank, if the per-Ah cost can be brought down.

Link to good sources please?

I only know one good source for Europe delivery but you could ask:
https://zukunftswerkstatt-verkehr.at/lithiumzellen.html
Sorry Page is only in German.
It is an Austrian NPO that developed a DIY solar battery called Titan one with 88 LTO cells. You can order their Titan one kit or single LTO cells.
They have tons of experience with these LTO due to that.

They do bulk orders for single LTO cells for private people, have a very good connection and deliver you 100% new cells Or if not new they know where they come from and tell you that.
Prices stated are for pickup in Austria inkl. 20%tax. delivery cost of 40cells to Germany are around 300Euro.

Especially here you get what you pay for, so forget the 19€ for a 30AH LTO from Alibaba&co. they are rubbish....
Also good prices for Catl Lifepo4 cells, 100% new 200AH cell is 150Euro pickup in Austria incl. 20% tax. Means a 12V 600AH bank is 1800Euro available in Austria.
No 600$ shipping,+20% tax and import tax on top.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Whatta Life

Of all the different Lithium I have personally used LTO is my favorite . I want to share some experience here to help others.

First don't use 5s for a 12v system , 6s is about perfect . Lto holds 90% of its capacity between 1.9v and 2.40v . Yes 2.8v is max charge but there is very little up there . Just like LFP , max charge is 3.65 but very little above 2.4v. So your working voltage is 11.4 to 14.4v . The audio Guys would change their alternators to 15v to get a little more out but 14.4v is fine . Lto can be discharged to 0.0v . There was a study that discharged to 0v and stored for 1 year . Charged after that and showed no loss of capacity . So you don't have to be concerned with discharging too low . I use them in my classic cars and have completely discharged them many times . They still work great . On My center console 2 of the motors have lto , The third outboard/house is still AGM .When you turn on the battery switches the 2 are resting above 14v and the agm 12.9 . When you start them the lto motors turn over much faster . A fellow boater that has big diesels and a large stereo was interested but sceptical . I had him hook up a small 20ah battery to one of the diesels and try to start it . His comment was it started quicker than the Odyssey 31agm he was using . He bought a lot of LTO .

Thank you for sharing that. Correct 6s config is the way to go for housebank and starter and limit to 15V charging. Also don‘t forget the cable losses, the 15V you have at the battery terminals, 14V or less arrives at your chart plotter. Well and for super sensitive equipment you could use a step up/down converter who holds the voltage steady at the adjusted level. I use one for may NAS which runs at 12.2V doesn’t matter if current lead acid are at 14 or 11V...

What size of LTO you would use as starter for a 62hp Volvo MD30A?
6x 30AH or 6x 40AH or 2x6x30AH? Tend to the 6x40Ah...

For the housebank I will use 3x Tesla modules, 3000Euro for 18.3kwh is unbeatable. Re-engineered them with a Tesla master technician and know now how to run them safely. And they are as reliable as the LTO cells as a boat housebank(!) with 24 or 48V operational voltage. 99% of the danger of them comes from operating at 400V and 3000A when you accelerate in ludicrous modus. And the after effects through that in each cell. This creates lightbows which bypasses every security element Tesla or anyone could build in and cause of 99.9% failures and runaways they had.
But operating and limiting each Modul to 1C charge (268A per module)and discharge rate and 24V/48V operations eliminates all of that. Also no cooling needed under any circumstances in this operating range.
Left is the risk of overcharging which causes then a therminal runaway, again with charge currents below 1C and 29V+ you have to do this for a long time so you get one.
This is very manageable and controllable by a BMS on each Modul, a over voltage cut off switch, over voltage warning on eg Vitron battery monitor, voltage limits on your charger eg Victron quattro which I use. So six sigma security like airplane with small additional costs, a Victron Quattro and battery monitor is there anyhow. As this replaces all gas onboard, much more secure.
Every Modul is wrapped in a fireproof blanket which gives you 6min to toss it overboard as last line of defense after they caught fire. Mine will be installed easy acessable in the pilothouse locker next to the exit, so I can do this if needed. local firebrigade tested that with 3 modules local tesla workshop donated to find out how to stretch time if eg a person is trapped in a burning Tesla.
How much time do you have with a proper gas leak? And what chance of running away from it...boom....

[s/v Jedi]

What interests me about LTO is that I could replace my engine room battery bank with LTO and charge it from a 48V house bank. Then use the “12V” LTO bank to power engine and genset starters as well as the electric winches in the cockpit.

Could do similar at the bow and power deck winches, windlass, bowthruster, bringing the battery close to the consumers without replacing these high power 12V devices with 48V versions.

[Whatta Life]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Thank you for sharing that. Correct 6s config is the way to go for housebank and starter and limit to 15V charging. Also don‘t forget the cable losses, the 15V you have at the battery terminals, 14V or less arrives at your chart plotter. Well and for super sensitive equipment you could use a step up/down converter who holds the voltage steady at the adjusted level. I use one for may NAS which runs at 12.2V doesn’t matter if current lead acid are at 14 or 11V...

What size of LTO you would use as starter for a 62hp Volvo MD30A?
6x 30AH or 6x 40AH or 2x6x30AH? Tend to the 6x40Ah...

For the housebank I will use 3x Tesla modules, 3000Euro for 18.3kwh is unbeatable. Re-engineered them with a Tesla master technician and know now how to run them safely. And they are as reliable as the LTO cells as a boat housebank(!) with 24 or 48V operational voltage. 99% of the danger of them comes from operating at 400V and 3000A when you accelerate in ludicrous modus. And the after effects through that in each cell. This creates lightbows which bypasses every security element Tesla or anyone could build in and cause of 99.9% failures and runaways they had.
But operating and limiting each Modul to 1C charge (268A per module)and discharge rate and 24V/48V operations eliminates all of that. Also no cooling needed under any circumstances in this operating range.
Left is the risk of overcharging which causes then a therminal runaway, again with charge currents below 1C and 29V+ you have to do this for a long time so you get one.
This is very manageable and controllable by a BMS on each Modul, a over voltage cut off switch, over voltage warning on eg Vitron battery monitor, voltage limits on your charger eg Victron quattro which I use. So six sigma security like airplane with small additional costs, a Victron Quattro and battery monitor is there anyhow. As this replaces all gas onboard, much more secure.
Every Modul is wrapped in a fireproof blanket which gives you 6min to toss it overboard as last line of defense after they caught fire. Mine will be installed easy acessable in the pilothouse locker next to the exit, so I can do this if needed. local firebrigade tested that with 3 modules local tesla workshop donated to find out how to stretch time if eg a person is trapped in a burning Tesla.
How much time do you have with a proper gas leak? And what chance of running away from it...boom....

The 30a Lto cells would do it but if it was me I would do the 40a for a few more dollars . The extra capacity is good if you have a problem and need to crank the engine longer . It will turn over that diesel like nothing you have seen .

[Whatta Life]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What interests me about LTO is that I could replace my engine room battery bank with LTO and charge it from a 48V house bank. Then use the “12V” LTO bank to power engine and genset starters as well as the electric winches in the cockpit.

Could do similar at the bow and power deck winches, windlass, bowthruster, bringing the battery close to the consumers without replacing these high power 12V devices with 48V versions.

That would work well . Plus you could dial up the voltage some which would eliminate voltage sag to the farther away places .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What interests me about LTO is that I could replace my engine room battery bank with LTO and charge it from a 48V house bank. Then use the “12V” LTO bank to power engine and genset starters as well as the electric winches in the cockpit.

Could do similar at the bow and power deck winches, windlass, bowthruster, bringing the battery close to the consumers without replacing these high power 12V devices with 48V versions.

Have a similar challenge then you.
Current 12V 420Ah lead acid house bank is in the pilot house together with the 140Ah starter battery. In the bow is the 12V 1600W windlass, the oversized 12V 6kw bowtruster taking 600A and electric head with 25A draw...this get it’s power via a 95mm2 powercable directly from the housebank in the pilot house 8m away. Done like this by former owner...4 years ago with all gear new and hardly used. So swapping that to 24V makes no sense.

New will be fully electric galley 3.4kw induction cooktop, 1300W oven.... with 2 fridges and 2 freezers, a Mini daewoo washing machine and a 5kw Victron Quattro to power all this...
I want to avoid having 5kw 12V for the Quattro drawing 400A while cooking...due to room constrains Quattro and housebank is 3m apart but would need 6-8m long cables min....

My 2 solutions:
No1: a 12V 80Ah LTO battery in the bow next to bowtruster acting as 12V starter/bowtruster/windlass batterybank getting the power/charging/starter via the 95mm2 Cable and a 24V housebank In Pilothouse Made from 2 or 3 Tesla modules. 24V 5kw quattro. Battery costs 2.5k or 3.5k for 12v 80Ah and 560 or 780Ah 24V, means 3.5 times capacity of no2.

Or
No2: 12V 6x40AH LTO starter and a 12V 8x6x55Ah=440Ah LTO bank and keep everything as current and use a 12V 5kw Quattro. Battery cost 4,5k and very tight fitting them. Can use 380-400Ah of the house...or well getting 10x6x55AH and have one bank for all. With LTO why not, even at 5% left they will easily start the engine.

[Whatta Life]

Also on the previous page that showed the Will Prowse Youtube video , Those cells are not new A grade cells . Look at the wrapper . The real ones have the Yinlong label on them . His are a lighter blue with a generic sticker on them . This has been a problem with some of the sellers from china . They are getting there hands on old cells and rewrapping them . Some of them are the smaller Ah cells that they are putting 40ah wrappers on . My guys have run into it a few times .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Whatta Life

Also on the previous page that showed the Will Prowse Youtube video , Those cells are not new A grade cells . Look at the wrapper . The real ones have the Yinlong label on them . His are a lighter blue with a generic sticker on them . This has been a problem with some of the sellers from china . They are getting there hands on old cells and rewrapping them . Some of them are the smaller Ah cells that they are putting 40ah wrappers on . My guys have run into it a few times .

True. They were junk and most likely rebadged 30Ah

Perfect source in Europe, see the link in post before to the Austrian NPO.
They deliver all new 100% or if used know exactly how they were used. They state that 55AH cells are not that good from quality.
For 40Ah cells as house I have too less space, need the 55AH cells then.

[CaptainRivet]

If you wanna have more info on these LTO cells look at the SPL car audio geeks here:

https://www.caraudio.com/threads/lit...-build.600099/

Since 2 years the guy pulls regularly 1500A of a 120AH 12V LTO battery made out of 18 pieces of these 40AH LTO cells.
1500A draw of a LTO 120AH and he gets a Voltage drop of 0.2V, 100A draw out of my 3x140AH lead acid creates 2.5V drop and that’s 1/15 of it....

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rocks

This is the battery setup in the workshop for testing. Ended up using 4 x 35mm leads between each strings.

Hi Rocks,


which cell balancer did you use?


you said thats 24V 520A but from the pic you posted that is not the case. you have a 6p11 setup which is 240AH with 24V means in total 5.76KWH



its 11 x 2.4V Cells in series makes one pack with 24V and 40AH, 6 packs 24V 40AH i parallel makes a 24V and 240AH.


Do you monitor your state of charge of the LTO like eg a Victron battery monitor? Would be really interesting to see how much of it do you use during a day.

[CaptainRivet]

good source for 100% new LTO cells in Europe:
https://zukunftswerkstatt-verkehr.at/lithiumzellen.html

[rocks]

Hi CaptainRivet

In the end we used 11s x 13p. We have a finishing voltage of 28.2v. Keeping the voltage below 2.56v per string we have found that we do not need to use the balancers, going higher the strings soon become unbalanced.
The monitoring equipment used is a Plasmatronics PL80, Selectronics inverter and Openplotter for remote data.

The lead batteries 800 ah could not keep up with the heavy inverter loads, watermaker or dive compressor when we had clouds. The voltage would drop down shutting the inverter off. The LTO’s drop by 0.75v at most.
The lowest I have seen the LTO bank is 24.7v overnight.

Removed the old solar panels from the boat, replacing them with half cell panels giving 2800 watts system.
Had 2 x 10kva genset which where removed from the boat, as have not used them for about a year. Fitted 300 amp 24 volt alternator to each motor for charging when under way. Charge the battery at max of 350 amps cruising at 7 knots until full charge (have to up grade the cables fuses etc). At 350 amps of charge the battery and connections are at room temperature.

The LTO's mass is about half of the lead batteries, but take up the same space.
We do all our cooking by induction and microwave. Run the watermaker at midday for about 30 minutes making ~100 lts. Can also fill 4 dive bottles all using inverter.

[Whatta Life]

These are the LTO cells i saved for myself . 70ah Altairnano's . I need to build a house battery for the CC but have been to busy . The majority of these were kept for the sail cat i want to buy but the way things are going it maybe a while . Plan is 1,000ah plus house battery that can be charged and discharged as hard as you want with no worries . Plus the safest battery you can out in a boat , period .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rocks

Hi CaptainRivet

In the end we used 11s x 13p. We have a finishing voltage of 28.2v. Keeping the voltage below 2.56v per string we have found that we do not need to use the balancers, going higher the strings soon become unbalanced.
The monitoring equipment used is a Plasmatronics PL80, Selectronics inverter and Openplotter for remote data.

The lead batteries 800 ah could not keep up with the heavy inverter loads, watermaker or dive compressor when we had clouds. The voltage would drop down shutting the inverter off. The LTO’s drop by 0.75v at most.
The lowest I have seen the LTO bank is 24.7v overnight.

Removed the old solar panels from the boat, replacing them with half cell panels giving 2800 watts system.
Had 2 x 10kva genset which where removed from the boat, as have not used them for about a year. Fitted 300 amp 24 volt alternator to each motor for charging when under way. Charge the battery at max of 350 amps cruising at 7 knots until full charge (have to up grade the cables fuses etc). At 350 amps of charge the battery and connections are at room temperature.

The LTO's mass is about half of the lead batteries, but take up the same space.
We do all our cooking by induction and microwave. Run the watermaker at midday for about 30 minutes making ~100 lts. Can also fill 4 dive bottles all using inverter.

Thank you for all the info.
That is a real monster LTO. Sure lead 800AH is just 160AH you can use versus now you can use 450 AH so triple amount.
No wonder thst lead can keep up with what you state you use them for, all shortterm heavy loads of 300-400 ampere about 10-15min, poison for lead but perfect for LTO.
More important charging is quick so 2800W of solar or 350A alternator makes it from empty to full in about 90min.

What kind of boat do you have to fit 2800W of solar? Seems like 800AH lead was by far too less for what you need.

My plan is a bit different. I will use 120AH of LTO as 12V starter, bow truster (needs 600A) and windlass battery.
They are all 2-3year new 12V gear and i need a battery that deal with this high loads shor
tterm.
House will be 3 Tesla battery modules.
They are also longterm very good batteries, and here as much AH is needed. Onr modul is 6.7kwh so 3 are 20kwh. Like this even a week operating without recharging is possible. Have no windvsne but 2 autopilots...no high loads here besides cooking with 3kw stove or oven. But even that is on 24v less then 1C for one module.
Safety no problem, Reengineed them with a master tesla technician and what i operate them the only issue need to be taken care is overcharging. Most likely never be close as my 1500W solar need long to charge 3 module. Tesla don't care if they are at 20 or 80% or somewhere in between for a long time...