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Old 02-05-2021, 11:56   #1
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Lithium charging questions

I'm a newbie to LiPo, so please bear with my ignorance...but I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.

I recently changed out my five 210ah Lifeline AGMs for 24 packs of 24 Panasonic NCR18650PF LiPo batteries (saved about 550# and I believe I about doubled my useable capacity). Each is 203ah/3.6v/730Wh. I have six 'units' of 4 packs each wired in series and parallel, so its nominally 16v at 203ah...approx 1200ah total.

The manual says the "nominal voltage" is 3.6 (as does the sticker on each pack), and the "charge voltage" is 4.2.

1. Do I set my charger to 14.4 (4x3.6) or 16.8 (4x4.2) to maximize my bank? To me, logic says 16.8....but that seems pretty high to someone who's always used AGMs.

2. If its 16.8, my xantrex fsw3012 maxes out at 16v, so do I set my solar controller to 16.8 to make up the difference (when on shore power or genset)?

Again--a lithium newbie, so thanks for your inputs
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Old 02-05-2021, 12:19   #2
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Re: Lithium charging questions

Before you connect anything, I think you should have a read of this. Written by Rod Collins who is a member on here and his advice is well thought of:

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

Having just commissioned my own bank, I have followed his lead.

BTW those batteries are LiPo not LifePO4 which is normally discussed for yachts. Are you aware the cells are cylindrical and have a life of 500 cycles:

https://www.allbatteries.co.uk/media/pdf/ACL9031_UK.pdf

I don't think they will be suitable for your purpose.

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Old 02-05-2021, 12:36   #3
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Re: Lithium charging questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbillman View Post
I'm a newbie to LiPo, so please bear with my ignorance...but I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.

I recently changed out my five 210ah Lifeline AGMs for 24 packs of 24 Panasonic NCR18650PF LiPo batteries (saved about 550# and I believe I about doubled my useable capacity). Each is 203ah/3.6v/730Wh. I have six 'units' of 4 packs each wired in series and parallel, so its nominally 16v at 203ah...approx 1200ah total.

The manual says the "nominal voltage" is 3.6 (as does the sticker on each pack), and the "charge voltage" is 4.2.

1. Do I set my charger to 14.4 (4x3.6) or 16.8 (4x4.2) to maximize my bank? To me, logic says 16.8....but that seems pretty high to someone who's always used AGMs.

2. If its 16.8, my xantrex fsw3012 maxes out at 16v, so do I set my solar controller to 16.8 to make up the difference (when on shore power or genset)?

Again--a lithium newbie, so thanks for your inputs
Personally I would not allow that chemistry of lipo on my vessel nor on any of my customers boats.
Lifepo4 or nothing .
The rest have a big issue with thermal runaway potential.

I agree with Pete you should read rods pages on the subject.
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Old 02-05-2021, 13:18   #4
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Re: Lithium charging questions

I think you have been sold a pig in a poke.

The time to do research is before buying a brand new to you battery chemistry. You have probably thrown away a considerable amount of money on buying LiPo and not LFP.
Measure twice, cut once
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Old 02-05-2021, 13:33   #5
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Re: Lithium charging questions

I imagine you will hear this a lot. But since it is something you probably won’t want to hear, you might need to hear it a lot before you take heed.

Those batteries are not suitable nor safe. What you wanted was Lifepo4. You need to do a lot of reading before you whack together a DIY lithium battery.

If you can’t be bothered, buy a reputable pre-made battery, such as a battleborn. They cost a lot more, but are much less likely to burn down your boat. Even with battleborns, you can damage your alternator, shorten battery life, or worse, if you don’t setup your system properly.
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Old 02-05-2021, 13:50   #6
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Re: Lithium charging questions

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Originally Posted by gbillman View Post
I'm a newbie to LiPo, so please bear with my ignorance...but I want to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
..............
..............


Again--a lithium newbie, so thanks for your inputs



Well, you did ask...


I believe all the skippers are being fair and honest with you. Face it, you made a mistake. But we all do.


That said, I have a friend back in SF who I met when we raced, and he's become a cruiser who wants his beer cold!


He did over a year of research, much of it reading Maine Sail and THIS FORUM, which has an extensive collection of experience with these new puppies.


Regardless of where you are now, you may have to face the reaslity of having to return your purchase, which is literally possibly dangerous to your health.


And then do your research and homework to determine what's right for you.


Good luck.
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Old 02-05-2021, 19:28   #7
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Re: Lithium charging questions

Thanks everyone. Yikes.
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Old 02-05-2021, 19:31   #8
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Re: Lithium charging questions

the second link doesn't seem to be working
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Old 02-05-2021, 21:17   #9
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Re: Lithium charging questions

All may not be lost. Yes, Lifepo4 are intrinsically safer than LMO but it doesn't mean that your batteries are going to spontaneously combust and burn your boat down. Just have adequate controls in place and allow large safety buffers to prevent under and over voltage. These will also give you much greater cell life cycles.

Many RVs use Tesla packs and some boats do as well. Perhaps research those and critically assess what you can also adopt.

https://youtu.be/Gmf9J1e2dU8

3.6v is the nominal or average voltage of the cell. It may be anywhere from 3 to 4.2v depending on its state of charge (how "full" it is). Charging can be done upto 4.2v. DO NOT go above this. The higher the voltage, the higher the capacity, lower cycle life and the higher the potential for an unintentional thermal event. You don't have to charge all the way up to 4.2v if you don't want to or if you are ok with a slight drop in capacity.

I believe everyone is giving advice in good faith but there are a lot of vested interests who have convinced others that Lifepo4 is the ONLY answer

Good luck
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Old 02-05-2021, 22:19   #10
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Re: Lithium charging questions

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Originally Posted by gbillman View Post
Thanks everyone. Yikes.
Ummm.... Yeah. These are actually lithium nickle cobalt cells, be ultr careful regarding maximum and minimum cell voltages because this is one of the chemistries that suffer from thermal run away and actually produce their own oxygen inside the cell. An indicator of what happens if you don't follow the rules
you don't want that under the deck where you can't wheel it outside to finish the fireworks. Just as a note for reference, buckets of sand are the only hope of controlling one of these fires, the sand melts and seals the materials around the exploding cells and stops them from burning. Once they are cooled down the explosions will stop ... well eventually anyway.
These are the same cells as Tesla use, they have a very carefully managed liquid heat transfer system designed to get the heat away from the cells .... and they very carefully monitor the cell voltages .... not carefully enough it seems because they can still have fires.
These cells go into thermal run away as quickly under voltage as over voltage. The under voltage can occur when the current draw is beyond the cells capacity to deliver, just like every other chemistry cell, but these are tightly wound single layer cells, so the inner windings get hottest fastest and that is where the big bang is generated.
Personally, I'd be mega careful getting them back out of the boat, wrap all terminals in high voltage tape to make sure there are no sparks .... and find someone who can actually use these cells that understands the whole safety requirements that go along with these explosive devices just waiting for the right conditions to go bang ... only requires one to go bang and the rest will follow ...

T1 Terry
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Old 02-05-2021, 22:21   #11
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Re: Lithium charging questions

16+ v is going to fry electronics or other things in your boat.

I would not want to be over 15v on the bank while powering anything.

On top of the other posts above. This bank does not sound suitable for 12v loads. The voltage is wrong. And 3 cells is too low.
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Old 02-05-2021, 22:31   #12
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Re: Lithium charging questions

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Originally Posted by GoneDiving View Post
All may not be lost. Yes, Lifepo4 are intrinsically safer than LMO but it doesn't mean that your batteries are going to spontaneously combust and burn your boat down. Just have adequate controls in place and allow large safety buffers to prevent under and over voltage. These will also give you much greater cell life cycles.

Many RVs use Tesla packs and some boats do as well. Perhaps research those and critically assess what you can also adopt.

https://youtu.be/Gmf9J1e2dU8

3.6v is the nominal or average voltage of the cell. It may be anywhere from 3 to 4.2v depending on its state of charge (how "full" it is). Charging can be done upto 4.2v. DO NOT go above this. The higher the voltage, the higher the capacity, lower cycle life and the higher the potential for an unintentional thermal event. You don't have to charge all the way up to 4.2v if you don't want to or if you are ok with a slight drop in capacity.

I believe everyone is giving advice in good faith but there are a lot of vested interests who have convinced others that Lifepo4 is the ONLY answer

Good luck
Actually, if you have the $$ and room, LTO is a far better investment. They have come down in price as production has increased, but the same deal, buyer beware. On another thread I listed out all the capacity cells that are actually the same case format.
This is because all the lower capacity cells are rejects and bought up as seconds real cheap and sold to the unsuspecting suckers. Linyong are a quality cell manufacturer, look through the sellers and compare the cell format size and you will soon see the genuine 45Ah cells are sold off cheap as 40Ah, 35Ah and I've even seen 30Ah cells that are really crap 45Ah cells.

I'm looking at using the 55Ah cells in my next electric vehicle build because the charge incredibly fast, discharge at very high rates and last a long time.

An alternative, to a big capacity battery bank, a smaller capacity bank that recharges incredibly fast. Big alternators for recharging and short motor runs when the solar or other recharging devices can't keep up with the demand.

T1 Terry
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Old 03-05-2021, 02:16   #13
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Re: Lithium charging questions

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Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
Actually, if you have the $$ and room, LTO is a far better investment. They have come down in price as production has increased, but the same deal, buyer beware.

T1 Terry
Battery technology and their pricing is evolving incredibly fast. One of the big advantages of this is that superseded mature chemistries become very good value. I'd place Lifepo4 in that category now.

One of the big advantages of lithium generally is that it's very easy in terms of $$$, size and weight to engineer out problems. Concerned about over discharging, cycle lifespan or (dis)charge currents? Simple, just add more. I'll never use 9hour run time in my dive scooter but I'll never notice 10% cell degradation, it's lasts a weekend and max draw is < 1C. I'm using the same logic for a 48v 840ah house bank.

Despite everyone's valid concerns I'd suggest that all "explosions" were due to stressors that could be managed and prevented. I wouldn't choose them as a first preference but I wouldn't panic either if controls are in place.
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Old 03-05-2021, 04:27   #14
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Re: Lithium charging questions

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Originally Posted by parachute View Post
Lithiumm batteries have caughfire in planes and and cars and everything else with a Lithium battery including phones.

Lithium-ion batteries commonly used in consumer electronics are notorious for bursting into flame when damaged or improperly packaged. ... "If the battery is damaged and the plastic layer fails, the electrodes can come into contact and cause the battery's liquid electrolyte to catch fire

List of UK Lithium battery fires: https://resource.co/article/lithium-...llion-annually
Sadly, this is the sort of thing found on the interweb, keyboard experts that really know nothing about the topic they are raving on about. If they really had a clue, they would lead with "Lithium ion" because refers to the ion exchange process that every chemical combination of lithium battery uses. Not all of the chemistries generate their own oxygen when they go into thermal run away and not all the lithium chemistries go so high in the thermal range when they go into thermal run away. LFP and LYP chemistries only get hot enough to vaporise the volatile part of their electrolyte, once that turns to vapour and vents, the cell just sits there. Once the electrolyte is gone, the ion exchange ends.
LTO just loose cycle life is pushed over voltage or under voltage, they don't swell up, go pop or anything, just the hard earned $$ float off into the ether

Now lead acid batteries, there is a very dangerous piece of kit. The vent a highly explosive mix of hydrogen and oxygen, even in normal operation. they can explode, catch fire and cause very nasty acid burns, add that to them exploding and they are so dangerous if they were trying to get them approved for use today they would require an acid proof ballistic casing before they left the factory ......

T1 Terry

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