|
|
03-08-2021, 06:23
|
#16
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,749
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Originally Posted by team karst
Unless the boat is ur bail out plan.
|
If there’s an EMP the only thing that will work are the sails. An EMP will fry all electronics. Your diesel may run if there is no electronics involved, but chances are diodes will be cooked so no battery charging.
Radios dead, chargers, solar controllers, all instruments. Dead. Plus no shore power, no internet, no food markets.
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 06:36
|
#17
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: the Med
Boat: Nauta 54' by Scott Kaufman/S&S - 1989
Posts: 1,180
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Likely some Proton decay should be considered too
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 06:46
|
#18
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 228
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Nothing that can conduct electricity is safe from lightening. No, not even lead acid batteries, I've seen the terminals/posts melted off in a large emergency battery bank for a hospital.
Lets see, big flat body of water, 60 or 70 foot lightening rod stuck up in the air, and... I think we may have a problem. Yes we do what we can to direct the strike to ground but sometimes, mother nature doesn't like taking directions.
Moral: Ya spend yer money, ya take your chances.
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 08:37
|
#19
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Flagler County, FL, USA, Earth
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 1,498
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare
If there’s an EMP the only thing that will work are the sails. An EMP will fry all electronics. Your diesel may run if there is no electronics involved, but chances are diodes will be cooked so no battery charging.
Radios dead, chargers, solar controllers, all instruments. Dead. Plus no shore power, no internet, no food markets.
|
Gosh, i hope grubhub wont be affected.
Curiously, did you notice how, during this latest world emergency, some luxury services have started and thrived?
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 09:42
|
#20
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare
If there’s an EMP the only thing that will work are the sails. An EMP will fry all electronics. Your diesel may run if there is no electronics involved, but chances are diodes will be cooked so no battery charging.
Radios dead, chargers, solar controllers, all instruments. Dead. Plus no shore power, no internet, no food markets.
|
You do realize that there are degrees of EMP - electromagnetic pulse. The EMP from a nuclear explosion is not comparable to one from a lightning strike. The lightning EMP generally takes out vulnerable electronics but all.
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 09:53
|
#21
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northfield, NJ
Boat: Hunter 170
Posts: 85
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
I was reading (I am an electronics engineer) about the effects of lightning. One effect is the voltage field across a chip my cause some of the super tiny connector wires inside the chip to blow off some atoms making the wire smaller. Over time with start up in rush current the wire will fully break. This might be a few weeks down the road.
I had a strike about 200' from my tv years ago. Less then a week later the TV failed.
Lightning is a strange animal and can do many strange things.
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 10:34
|
#22
|
Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Between Caribbean and Canada
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 8,492
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
For those who have gone through direct strikes or EMPs, has anyone had experience with their lithium banks and perhaps the BMS being taken out?
|
Many of the responses do not address the OP’s question. They are not wrong, but not relevant. If I may be so bold as to rephrase the OP’s question in order to sharpen the responses.
Does anyone here have direct experience with a lightning strike on a Lithium equipped boat?
And perhaps….
Are FLA more resilient to lightning strikes than Lithium batteries?
OR…..
Are lithium batteries and their associated charging devices susceptible to lighting strike?
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 10:40
|
#23
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Flagler County, FL, USA, Earth
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 1,498
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
As an EMC engineer, I would say that FLA are far more likely to withstand a large surge than a complex, electronically managed battery. But until someone actually tests batteries with a surge tester, its only an educated guess.
Even without lightning, my new to me boat is filled with EMC challenges. I just fixed the microwave sending the boat off by 20 degrees on AP recently.
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 11:57
|
#24
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,749
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L
You do realize that there are degrees of EMP - electromagnetic pulse. The EMP from a nuclear explosion is not comparable to one from a lightning strike. The lightning EMP generally takes out vulnerable electronics but all.
|
I'm not a battery expert, so can't say what a lighting strike will do to the batteries. But read up a few posts, and you'll see an astute observation that it can take out the charger/ electronics....so what good are the batteries?
I've had a direct hit once, and pretty-friggin-close hit twice. The direct hit blew the VHF antenna into pieces, and burned through wiring where it went around bends. VHF and stereo were fried; LORAN, tach, fuel gauge were OK. The near hits resulted in non-functional VHF and battery charger that came back to operation over the course of days. I've also seen boats hit and holed and sunk, and lit on fire and sunk.
As far as EMP, as in MIL-STD-188-125 EMP, I'm rather versed in it. I'll skip the mathematics and RF analysis. We get an EMP and it's stone age.
|
|
|
03-08-2021, 12:25
|
#25
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Flagler County, FL, USA, Earth
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 1,498
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
I tend to think that the natural caused EMP, namely GIC, caused by a CME, will not affect boats in our size range. Probably any size range. If, OTOH, it is a high altitude, intentional burst, we have that plus maybe more follow-on issues.
I just bought IEC61000-5-10. Hardening is pretty significant, to say the least.
|
|
|
04-08-2021, 12:20
|
#26
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare
I'm not a battery expert, so can't say what a lighting strike will do to the batteries. But read up a few posts, and you'll see an astute observation that it can take out the charger/ electronics....so what good are the batteries?
I've had a direct hit once, and pretty-friggin-close hit twice. The direct hit blew the VHF antenna into pieces, and burned through wiring where it went around bends. VHF and stereo were fried; LORAN, tach, fuel gauge were OK. The near hits resulted in non-functional VHF and battery charger that came back to operation over the course of days. I've also seen boats hit and holed and sunk, and lit on fire and sunk.
As far as EMP, as in MIL-STD-188-125 EMP, I'm rather versed in it. I'll skip the mathematics and RF analysis. We get an EMP and it's stone age.
|
Exactly, that's why making blanket statements that all your electronics will be lost and you will only have sails left is misleading. What will happen to a cruising boats electric and electronics with a nearby strike, an apparent hit or a major direct hit is just unknown. Some of the electronics will fail immediately, some will fail in the next few weeks and some will survive.
The BMS of a lithium bank system is obviously vulnerable and can't practically be isolated in a storm.
Just remember if you loose all your electronics and plan to start DR navigation, the ships compass often gets remagnitized in a strike -- as unfair as that may sound.
|
|
|
04-08-2021, 14:13
|
#27
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 831
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
I suppose what I’m getting out of this thread is that, for those who sail way beyond the horizon, to keep critical backup/spare electronics in a Faraday box. That would include an EXTERNAL BMS for your lithium bank.
|
|
|
04-08-2021, 20:18
|
#28
|
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Indonesia
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 3,794
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
Quote:
Originally Posted by mako
I suppose what I’m getting out of this thread is that, for those who sail way beyond the horizon, to keep critical backup/spare electronics in a Faraday box. That would include an EXTERNAL BMS for your lithium bank.
|
It’s not recommended from a daily management point of view, especially if you have a BMS that performs automatic balancing of cell voltages, but a BMS is not strictly necessary to operate a LFP battery. A working shunt would be useful to know the voltage and current, or at least a multimeter to provide voltage. Keep below 14.0 when charging and above 12.0 when discharging. As long as you’re on your boat all the time you can monitor manually and turn on or off chargers and loads manually.
|
|
|
04-08-2021, 20:32
|
#29
|
Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
I don't think anyone can say exactly what might happen , but based on my own experiences, you will be surprised to say the least !!!
In my industrial experience with them , I would say that Lithium's are very very robust technology. it tends to be all the stuff hanging off them that fails
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
|
|
|
05-08-2021, 15:26
|
#30
|
Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX/Bocas del Toro, Panama
Boat: 1990 Macintosh 47, "Merlin"
Posts: 2,844
|
Re: Lightning strikes or EMP taking out lithium bank
I'll jump in with our experience. Neighbor was struck a couple of months ago. We lost a bunch of stuff, likely through our grounding/bonding system, on the negative side. Most of what was lost, $$ wise, was networked marine electronics (Raymarine). Mostly just network.
We have very recent (5 months?) lithium batteries, and associated equipment. We put the batteries through a deep discharge cycle, and they graphed perfectly. I will say that our 12v DC to DC charger appears to be inoperable. But I haven't had a chance to dig into it, as I just noticed it. I could be as simple as a fuse.
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|
|