LiFePO4 reference diagram, Alternator version

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Agreed and I often disagree with ABYC recommendations, but that is based on having an alternative that is at least as good & safe and often more modern than what they recommend (think toroidal isolation transformer, ground fault breakers etc.)

When people rejected ABYC recommendations without valid reasoning, their stance will not prevail during insurance claims.

For ISO I think it is regulation.

Actually ISO is the same not regulatory but again best practice.
( had to look that one up)
Both do make best practice recommendations to regulatory agencies .
But the process takes decades for best practice to become regulation and usually takes multiple losses of life to get it done.

All safety rules are written in blood

[LifesBetterWhenYoureBeating]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I made these from scratch, it’s easy with LucidChart. The picture are grabbed from the screen and the wiring is a standard LucidChart feature, incl. rubber banding to make moving items easier.

Cool, I'm giving it a try but couldn't find a library containing the victron and other boat specific components. Is there anywhere I can get a library containing those or do I need to make them myself?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Not what I was saying at all. What I was saying is most insurers will do what ever they can to deny a claim such as certain safety features. In your bank build.



Similar but different my agent was reluctant to cover me offshore untill I installed a jack line strap.

Sorry this is not how insurance works in my neck of the woods.

Firstly their level of cover and restrictions is laid out in the policy document.

If an insurance event occurs , the insurance appointed surveyor will be tasked with establishing the nature of the event , and that nothing was misrepresented. Once he signs off the insurer’s have to pay out.

They can’t retrospectively add conditions once the contract has been accepted unless they can show you lied.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Actually ISO is the same not regulatory but again best practice.
( had to look that one up)
Both do make best practice recommendations to regulatory agencies .
But the process takes decades for best practice to become regulation and usually takes multiple losses of life to get it done.

All safety rules are written in blood

As it’s sits the EU RCD has not been updated to Include references to the new ISO lithium standard.

This will happen in 2023 when the next update occurs. Once the ISO standard is referenced it then has the force of law as RCD compliance is legally required. All subsequent ISO revisions of the standard will automatically become legally binding without RCD changes

( the RCD is a “ directive “ , hence individual EU countries can actually add more to the national law implementing this, but cannot reduce the provisions beyond the minimum ) the U.K. in particular used to “ gold plate “ many EU directives.

So in the case of Eu boats it’s not decades rather a year at most.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Agreed and I often disagree with ABYC recommendations, but that is based on having an alternative that is at least as good & safe and often more modern than what they recommend (think toroidal isolation transformer, ground fault breakers etc.)



When people rejected ABYC recommendations without valid reasoning, their stance will not prevail during insurance claims.



For ISO I think it is regulation.

I don’t agree in a contested claim unless the insurer mandated full ABYC compliance , it cannot simply refuse a claim just because an aspect of noT ABYC compliant.

It would have to establish in a court that the installation was deficient or negligently installed.

For example the diy installer might be a time served engineer. Etc.

Insurers cannot retrospectively apply conditions not in the policy document.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by gsalgado

Cool, I'm giving it a try but couldn't find a library containing the victron and other boat specific components. Is there anywhere I can get a library containing those or do I need to make them myself?

Unfortunately, no. So I just look the item up on the Victron/BlueSea website and grab the images from the screen. LucidChart has an import button that works quick and easy.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As it’s sits the EU RCD has not been updated to Include references to the new ISO lithium standard.

This will happen in 2023 when the next update occurs. Once the ISO standard is referenced it then has the force of law as RCD compliance is legally required. All subsequent ISO revisions of the standard will automatically become legally binding without RCD changes

( the RCD is a “ directive “ , hence individual EU countries can actually add more to the national law implementing this, but cannot reduce the provisions beyond the minimum ) the U.K. in particular used to “ gold plate “ many EU directives.

So in the case of Eu boats it’s not decades rather a year at most.

So in the EU the RCD takes the recommendations of the ISO and makes regulations from the recommendations. Sounds suspiciously like what I said . The ABYC and ISO are not governing bodies. But their recommendations are commonly used by governing bodies to make regulations.
And take money from us in the process.

Glad I don't live in a nanny state like the EU

[captstu]

Beautiful drawing! Any chance you could tell me the software package you used to make it, please.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by captstu

Beautiful drawing! Any chance you could tell me the software package you used to make it, please.

It is LucidChart. I think I’m gonna ask them for kickbacks

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

So in the EU the RCD takes the recommendations of the ISO and makes regulations from the recommendations. Sounds suspiciously like what I said . The ABYC and ISO are not governing bodies. But their recommendations are commonly used by governing bodies to make regulations.

And take money from us in the process.



Glad I don't live in a nanny state like the EU

Yes the RCD is the law and it references iso standards.

Glad I live in a caring society where standards matter

Strangely I look around and amongst the 1000s of euro boats I can’t see only 1 us yacht . Clearly ABYC has been successful in dominating the world

Ps ISO is a huge multinational ( US ANSI participates etc ) Effort. ABYC is tiny in comparison ISO has huge technical resources and reach.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes the RCD is the law and it references iso standards.

Glad I live in a caring society where standards matter

Strangely I look around and amongst the 1000s of euro boats I can’t see only 1 us yacht . Clearly ABYC has been successful in dominating the world

Ps ISO is a huge multinational ( US ANSI participates etc ) Effort. ABYC is tiny in comparison ISO has huge technical resources and reach.

Agree, but that doesn’t mean that ABYC is stupid; it only means that their resources are limited, which translates to lagging behind technology innovation. We have seen that this can go up to 10 years or more behind ISO. For other things, like lithium based batteries, it seems the ISO is following ABYC, go figure.

My main problem is not any of that, but the bureaucracy and how companies that sell products governed by ABYC/ISO have people working for them inside these organizations. They may call it lobbying or other legal sounding terms, but they are there to make sure their companies products meet recommendations and others don’t. I have been involved in similar organizations and it is sick.

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Who knows how ABYC wants to see fuses for an alternator? Just at the battery/busbar or also one at the alternator?

Common rule is to protect the wiring at the point where the energy steps in (not where it steps out). A fuse is not intended to protect any electrical equipment. It shall only protect the wiring. Nothing else.

The battery bank fuse is as near as possible to the bank (and before the main battery switch) and not the other way round on its way to the busbar. Hopefully!!!

This prevent the wiring from limiting the current due to a higher resistance caused by increased temperature before the overcurrent reaches the fuse. The current in the first inches of the cable might be to high and would burn it while in the last inches (where your fuse sits) the current can just pass the fuse without blowing it.

Does that apply to you? - I doubt that, because a LFP would produce endless juice. However, heat is a product of A x V = W. I see it like good seamanship.

A dead short would blow the fuse anyway, but a "slight short" might not.

P.S.: The busbar can normally carry a lot more current. So a good connection is needed, not a fuse. The next fuse is where the current enters the next line.

I didn't read all the posts at this time. Might be this is said already and there is a better explanation how and why. So, to be on the safe side, I ask for your forgiveness.

Cheers
Dirk

[s/v Jedi]

“Before the current reaches the fuse”

[rossdv8]

Just got to the end of this interesting post, (so fat) and one thing stood out.
A number of references to 'Blue Blobs' and to whether things were in parallel or series.


I have a question that should be obvious, but has been bugging me.


Shouldn't a 'Reference Diagram' be read in conjunction with a 'Circuit Schematic'?


A Circuit Schematic alone is confusing as hell for many non-electrical and non-electronics trained people.
But add a Reference Diagram and it all begins to make sense.
Annotate the Reference Diagram with Component Names and suddenly it all makes a LOT of sense.


The added bonus 'might' be no name calling, less derogatory comments about relative qualifications and skills, and a more constructive discussion.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Agree, but that doesn’t mean that ABYC is stupid; it only means that their resources are limited, which translates to lagging behind technology innovation. We have seen that this can go up to 10 years or more behind ISO. For other things, like lithium based batteries, it seems the ISO is following ABYC, go figure.



My main problem is not any of that, but the bureaucracy and how companies that sell products governed by ABYC/ISO have people working for them inside these organizations. They may call it lobbying or other legal sounding terms, but they are there to make sure their companies products meet recommendations and others don’t. I have been involved in similar organizations and it is sick.

I think ISO has far less producer influences by nature of how it makes up its technical groups

Interestingly I met a person recently who was involved in an iso tech working group. He opined that ABYC were aligning with iso and not the other way around. But who knows