LiFePO4 reference diagram, Alternator version

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Programmable Profil is not important with lifepo4 for an alternator, you want it to charge the bulk phase and then shut off to avoid a disconnect. Absorption and float is not needed on lifepo4, with bulk only it’s 99% SOC and to balance it from time to time solar does much better job then alternator.
and the AGM regulator of Valeo 125A and 115A Mitsubishi (both stock on newer Volvo,Yanmar,Beta with Serpentine belt drive) works perfectly, it’s adjusted to 14.2V so won‘t overcharge lifepo4, additionally there is a voltage drop on cable and argofet so the lifepo4 gets perfect 14.0V max.
You can compensate that with running a sensewire to argofet but I don’t as the voltage drop is welcomed here as adding additional security margin not to overcharge the lifepo4 should the cutoff at 99%SOC (or earlier) fail due to any reason. And if your alternator has an FLA regulator with temp protection you can use the argodiode which has 0.3V voltage drop instead argofet which reduces the voltage from typically max 14.7V to save 14,4V - cable voltage drop.
Again simple, bulletproof, effective and even cheap IF your alternator has temp protection.

Another issue with DC2DC, especially the Victron is its voltage based alternator run detection which gets easily fooled by other charge sources resulting in draining the starter, even if you are working additionally with an ignition wire.
Cannot happen with an argofet.
The solution to this problem is the easy AS alternator relay which scans for the typical ripple only an alternator produces and only if it’s sensing that ripple it’s switching on the DC2DC, not sensing that anymore switching it off. Like this you can use the cheaper renogy DC2DC chargers (or other budget ones) and spare yourself running an ignition wire, which can get complicated and you need to hack into original wiring but still can cause unwanted draining of starter without this relay.

Please try to write a simple answer . I know it's difficult to hide inexperience in simple answers .

Best is if you need more than 60 or 80 amps charging for a lifepo4 bank it would be much more efficient ( not to mention cheaper ) to fire up your genset and run a big charger. Myself that is 120 amp. And can stack another 50 amp unit on that.)
90% of our collective charging is from solar. The alternator is just a backup charge source. ( for me it's #4 backup. Only used when entering or leaving a marina. And then just because the engine is already running for at least 30 minutes .

[CaptainRivet]

[QUOTE=newhaul;3931544]Please try to write a simple answer . I know it's difficult to hide inexperience in simple answers .
[Quote]
Reported...absolutely unacceptable.
And if you don't understand the quoted you better don't touch anything electric on your vessel, that's as simple as you can explain what's important to know in context!

Best is if you need more than 60 or 80 amps charging for a lifepo4 bank it would be much more efficient ( not to mention cheaper ) to fire up your genset and run a big charger. Myself that is 120 amp. And can stack another 50 amp unit on that.)
90% of our collective charging is from solar. The alternator is just a backup charge source. ( for me it's #4 backup. Only used when entering or leaving a marina. And then just because the engine is already running for at least 30 minutes .

Nope its the worst...Well you don't seem to know that majority wanna get rid of a gen if they have one or if spec a new boat don't order one but put a big alternator additional or replace existing on the engine to profit from the charge efficiency and current an LFP has.
Its absolute waste of money and space for gen, not want to maintain a gen and around 180A charge from one engine with 2 x 115A Mitsubishi for 600Euro all in (brackets,argofet, 2nd alternator, belt,pulley) and keeping engine warranty on volvo is simpler, cheaper plus more efficient as alternator are used when engine runs anyhow. Could add a 3rd one but the 2 are already overkill. Well and I have 2 engines so 360A charge if both are running and also make hot water but only 120A shorcharger from one Multi without hot water. But alternators is just backup for the seldom 2 weeks of bad weather and working spare (can lie in a box or be used) plus harvesting max energy if they run anyhow for propulsion, main charge is solar.

[newhaul]

[QUOTE=CaptainRivet;3931636][QUOTE=newhaul;3931544]Please try to write a simple answer . I know it's difficult to hide inexperience in simple answers .

Reported...absolutely unacceptable.
And if you don't understand the quoted you better don't touch anything electric on your vessel, that's as simple as you can explain what's important to know in context!


Nope its the worst...Well you don't seem to know that majority wanna get rid of a gen if they have one or if spec a new boat don't order one but put a big alternator additional or replace existing on the engine to profit from the charge efficiency and current an LFP has.
Its absolute waste of money and space for gen, not want to maintain a gen and around 180A charge from one engine with 2 x 115A Mitsubishi for 600Euro all in (brackets,argofet, 2nd alternator, belt,pulley) and keeping engine warranty on volvo is simpler, cheaper plus more efficient as alternator are used when engine runs anyhow. Could add a 3rd one but the 2 are already overkill. Well and I have 2 engines so 360A charge if both are running and also make hot water but only 120A shorcharger from one Multi without hot water. But alternators is just backup for the seldom 2 weeks of bad weather and working spare (can lie in a box or be used) plus harvesting max energy if they run anyhow for propulsion, main charge is solar.

Actually incorrect I have actually installed 3 gensets in cruisers in the last 6 months and removed none .
So at least in my area people are wanting gensets. Remember this is a word wide forum not just a local one .
Also have several friends out there adding gensets to their cruising boats . Mainly to run their air conditioning at anchor .
60 amps out of my dumb 75 amp alternator will cover 2 days usage on my vessel . ( yes my dc2dc is only a 40 amp ) got great deal on it half price)

I only need 30ah per day average 8n summer and 25 ah in winter. ( fridge runs less in winter)

600 watts solar cover it quite well. And just in case I have a spare mppt controller just in case of a failure situation. Cheap insurance.

We both seem to agree that solar covers 99% of annual power needs when not on shore power.

[newhaul]

[QUOTE=CaptainRivet;3931636][QUOTE=newhaul;3931544]Please try to write a simple answer . I know it's difficult to hide inexperience in simple answers .

Reported...absolutely unacceptable.
And if you don't understand the quoted you better don't touch anything electric on your vessel, that's as simple as you can explain what's important to know in context!


Nope its the worst...Well you don't seem to know that majority wanna get rid of a gen if they have one or if spec a new boat don't order one but put a big alternator additional or replace existing on the engine to profit from the charge efficiency and current an LFP has.
Its absolute waste of money and space for gen, not want to maintain a gen and around 180A charge from one engine with 2 x 115A Mitsubishi for 600Euro all in (brackets,argofet, 2nd alternator, belt,pulley) and keeping engine warranty on volvo is simpler, cheaper plus more efficient as alternator are used when engine runs anyhow. Could add a 3rd one but the 2 are already overkill. Well and I have 2 engines so 360A charge if both are running and also make hot water but only 120A shorcharger from one Multi without hot water. But alternators is just backup for the seldom 2 weeks of bad weather and working spare (can lie in a box or be used) plus harvesting max energy if they run anyhow for propulsion, main charge is solar.

Don't forget that your 360 amps from alternators requires at a minimum 14.5 hp out of your engines total hp. Always need to remember that when specing alternator output . For size of engine .

[svloki]

Originally Posted by newhaul

If I want more charge I would start my 1500watt genset and run my 120 amp inverter charger charging side.

For high output ( over 120 amp output ) yes hook up to your lifepo4 bank through an external regulator of some type .

In my experience most with the 150 amp and above alternator don't actually use them on any regular schedule for charging . Solar is to cheap and quiet . 20 years ago yes but today not so much .

Yes true, most cruising boats have much more solar than 20 years ago. 15 years ago I installed a one cylinder Kubota diesel that runs a 200amp Leece Neville alternator, Balmar 618 regulator. It still gets use but mainly for the clutch driven watermaker on it. When I make water I have to dial the amps down to 50 to avoid stalling it. On cloudy days I run it, and make water then. If building today I might skip the DC generator, and go all solar.

[CaptainRivet]

[QUOTE=newhaul;3931671][QUOTE=CaptainRivet;3931636]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Please try to write a simple answer . I know it's difficult to hide inexperience in simple answers .


Don't forget that your 360 amps from alternators requires at a minimum 14.5 hp out of your engines total hp. Always need to remember that when specing alternator output . For size of engine .

I have 2x50hp instead 2x20hp and doing WOT 15 till 17kn under both engines if required on a sailing cat which is very rarely needed...so easily have that extra 7.5hp spare per engine.
It's actually good to have that extra load on the engines in my case. And I can always shut each alternator off if I need in case I need that extra power. Mostly only one engine with one alternator running anyhow on as solar gets the bank full.
And I would bet most have the engine with big alternator running on anchor for the seldom times they need extra charge for the house, so the alt gets all the hp it's needed.

[newhaul]

[QUOTE=CaptainRivet;3932321][QUOTE=newhaul;3931671]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I have 2x50hp instead 2x20hp and doing WOT 15 till 17kn under both engines if required on a sailing cat which is very rarely needed...so easily have that extra 7.5hp spare per engine.
It's actually good to have that extra load on the engines in my case. And I can always shut each alternator off if I need in case I need that extra power. Mostly only one engine with one alternator running anyhow on as solar gets the bank full.
And I would bet most have the engine with big alternator running on anchor for the seldom times they need extra charge for the house, so the alt gets all the hp it's needed.

Glad to know you speced your vessel to be overpowered under most conditions however remember this forum has thousands of members from all corners of the world and many have just the stock minimum engines by specification.
My posts are not just directed at you. And you are not the only one I have tried to politely remind of that fact.
99% of my posts are not vessel specific unless the info is specificly requested .

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I have 2x50hp instead 2x20hp and doing WOT 15 till 17kn under both engines if required on a sailing cat which is very rarely needed...so easily have that extra 7.5hp spare per engine.
It's actually good to have that extra load on the engines in my case. And I can always shut each alternator off if I need in case I need that extra power. Mostly only one engine with one alternator running anyhow on as solar gets the bank full.
And I would bet most have the engine with big alternator running on anchor for the seldom times they need extra charge for the house, so the alt gets all the hp it's needed.

So, the best answer to make electricity is to report with an engine 2.5x the size of your current engine? That doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Nope its the worst...Well you don't seem to know that majority wanna get rid of a gen if they have one or if spec a new boat don't order one but put a big alternator additional or replace existing on the engine to profit from the charge efficiency and current an LFP has.
Its absolute waste of money and space for gen, not want to maintain a gen and around 180A charge from one engine with 2 x 115A Mitsubishi for 600Euro all in (brackets,argofet, 2nd alternator, belt,pulley) and keeping engine warranty on volvo is simpler, cheaper plus more efficient as alternator are used when engine runs anyhow. Could add a 3rd one but the 2 are already overkill. Well and I have 2 engines so 360A charge if both are running and also make hot water but only 120A shorcharger from one Multi without hot water. But alternators is just backup for the seldom 2 weeks of bad weather and working spare (can lie in a box or be used) plus harvesting max energy if they run anyhow for propulsion, main charge is solar.

It makes little sense to use your inboard diesel engine to make electricity unless you are already motoring. ANYTHING else is better. Solar, watt&sea, wind, or a generator. The large diesel running even 2x115A alternators is wasting fuel and making noise. A small generator is more fuel efficient, and can be quieter if installed properly.

I agree with newhaul. I will use alternator power to charge if the engine is running and it is available so as to not waste it. But I don't plan on that being a way to charge the batteries except as a backup if everything else fails to do so.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wholybee

So, the best answer to make electricity is to report with an engine 2.5x the size of your current engine? That doesn't make any sense.




It makes little sense to use your inboard diesel engine to make electricity unless you are already motoring. ANYTHING else is better. Solar, watt&sea, wind, or a generator. The large diesel running even 2x115A alternators is wasting fuel and making noise. A small generator is more fuel efficient, and can be quieter if installed properly.

I agree with newhaul. I will use alternator power to charge if the engine is running and it is available so as to not waste it. But I don't plan on that being a way to charge the batteries except as a backup if everything else fails to do so.

Read again what I wrote and take your time to understand what I wrote...
1)I described what I have and what's the megatrend in the marine industry, put big alternators on auxiliary engine and cancel the generator. You cannot deny that and there are several very good reasons. Main charge source is solar.
2)alternators are only used when engines are running for propulsion anyhow or the very!!! seldom cases of 1 week bad weather and charging an overdized lithium bank, main charge source is solar!!! The additional seldom runtime as backup doesn't cause any additional maintenance, the 300-500h limit is not reached so maintenance done on time base anyhow. Means the 30min I have the engines on to maneuver into anchor spot and anchor savely gives me the energy for the whole next 24h incl. Hot water or the gap for the next 3 days if clouded as solar still produce something, costs 1l diesel used extra and NOTHING else. Ah I forget all 3 to 5 years additionally a belt that drives the 2nd alternator, outrages expensive...irony off.
3) I don't need the space, the installation and device cost, the fuel supply and costs and the additonal maintenance of a generator. And it's not generator only you need but a big shorepower charger to put eg 360A charge in, that's 3 Multi costing 4000Euro+generator+installation cost. my 2 alternators additional incl..argofets costed 1200Euro all in and actually where lying as spare useless around in the locker, so actual cost where 600Euro. As I wrote mostly 1 engine with 1 alternator is used delivering around 20A as solar got the bank full already.
That's my business case, absolute no brainer to do.
other spent 2000Euro per engine all in for a heavy duty alternator replacing the original one. Still a good business case compared to a generator unless you run the auxiliary engine all the time as generator only, which nobody does that uses that setup. Even if you run 1/3 additonal the auxiliary engine only for generator purpose that's still cheaper and needs much less space then a generator.
4)I still have a portable gas genny using the 120A charge from multi. That's 2nd backup and then used on long passages and crossing as I burn part of the 50l dingy gas onboard and have every litre diesel onboard for propulsion if needed. Till now in 3 years only maintenance costs for it as it never run till now other then for test purposes.
5) Having isolated engine rooms with watertight bulkheads and 4 cylinder the Honda makes actually more noise then 1 engine on 1300RPM, if it's the guest hull engine it's only the vibration that I feel.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Read again what I wrote and take your time to understand what I wrote...
1)I described what I have and what's the megatrend in the marine industry, put big alternators on auxiliary engine and cancel the generator. You cannot deny that and there are several very good reasons. Main charge source is solar.
2)alternators are only used when engines are running for propulsion anyhow or the very!!! seldom cases of 1 week bad weather and charging an overdized lithium bank, main charge source is solar!!! The additional seldom runtime as backup doesn't cause any additional maintenance, the 300-500h limit is not reached so maintenance done on time base anyhow. Means the 30min I have the engines on to maneuver into anchor spot and anchor savely gives me the energy for the whole next 24h incl. Hot water or the gap for the next 3 days if clouded as solar still produce something, costs 1l diesel used extra and NOTHING else. Ah I forget all 3 to 5 years additionally a belt that drives the 2nd alternator, outrages expensive...irony off.
3) I don't need the space, the installation and device cost, the fuel supply and costs and the additonal maintenance of a generator. And it's not generator only you need but a big shorepower charger to put eg 360A charge in, that's 3 Multi costing 4000Euro+generator+installation cost. my 2 alternators additional incl..argofets costed 1200Euro all in and actually where lying as spare useless around in the locker, so actual cost where 600Euro. As I wrote mostly 1 engine with 1 alternator is used delivering around 20A as solar got the bank full already.
That's my business case, absolute no brainer to do.
other spent 2000Euro per engine all in for a heavy duty alternator replacing the original one. Still a good business case compared to a generator unless you run the auxiliary engine all the time as generator only, which nobody does that uses that setup. Even if you run 1/3 additonal the auxiliary engine only for generator purpose that's still cheaper and needs much less space then a generator.
4)I still have a portable gas genny using the 120A charge from multi. That's 2nd backup and then used on long passages and crossing as I burn part of the 50l dingy gas onboard and have every litre diesel onboard for propulsion if needed. Till now in 3 years only maintenance costs for it as it never run till now other then for test purposes.
5) Having isolated engine rooms with watertight bulkheads and 4 cylinder the Honda makes actually more noise then 1 engine on 1300RPM, if it's the guest hull engine it's only the vibration that I feel.

As I have posted great it works for you however not a normal case for many around the world.

Now place your additional costs against a $1200 USD honda portable inverter generator to run your shore charger and any other 120v AC appliances such as watermakers and bread machines. / charge tablets computers and other portable devices .


Edit: all of your posts pushing the system such as yours makes sense as you stated it is your business case .
Serious question are you a private cruiser or a cruiser/ service provider?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

As I have posted great it works for you however not a normal case for many around the world.

Now place your additional costs against a $1200 USD honda portable inverter generator to run your shore charger and any other 120v AC appliances such as watermakers and bread machines. / charge tablets computers and other portable devices .


Edit: all of your posts pushing the system such as yours makes sense as you stated it is your business case .
Serious question are you a private cruiser or a cruiser/ service provider?

I am private lifeaboard. I help and support other cruisers occasionally for the swap to lithium or check their electrical systems for the rum kitty.

I have an absolute standard energy system for typical liveaboard cat with electric galley.
As much solar as i can that covers my daily needs in 85% of time, oversized lithium bank and backup charge source is alternator and 2nd backup a portable genny.
Nothing special about that. What's special is my BMS and the LTO starter.
What I push is that if you have proper stock alternator with internal temp control a very simple, relaible and very cost effective method (with Mitusbishi or Valeo you are in 600 Euro range) is agrofet + 2nd identical alternator with DIY bracket while everywhere they tell you, use a DC2DC charger and senseless castrate the alternator that can take care about itself or you need a big heavy duty alternator with external expensive regulator (eg wakespeed)...and that then delivers in quite a lot cases not that what was promised and cost you 2000Euro+ all in.

The normal case for majority out there is
A) coastal cruiser who comes back daily to habour and occasionally 2 or 3 days over a long weekend stays in a bay overnight. Main charge source shorepower, a bit solar that easliy fits and the 2 or 3 days charge with engine alternator. That's the big mass
B) the ones that go out for longer periodes but still go back to habour: stick as much solar as you can and max out your existing alternator, the alternator keeps it on a level you can use it, back in habour shorepower makes your bank really full.
C) lifeaboard and bluewater cruisers: stick max solar you can that normally covers your daily needs, oversized lithium bank and put heavy duty alternator replacing or additional to org. One so you harvest what you can when engine runs and for the seldom occasion when you get a negative charge delta from solar over time.
D) generator for high latitude vessel or monos with high energy demands (often cannot fit enough solar for that demand) where solar cannot harvest enough for your total daily needs or where the wife finds the solar destroying the optics of the precious vessel.
These are the 4 majority use cases, sure other exists but that's the 80% mass altogether.
A portable small genny is using B) and C) plus D) as emergency backup for the occasional use as they also have enough big shorepower charger to make use of it.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I am private lifeaboard. I help and support other cruisers occasionally for the swap to lithium or check their electrical systems for the rum kitty.

I have an absolute standard energy system for typical liveaboard cat with electric galley.
As much solar as i can that covers my daily needs in 85% of time, oversized lithium bank and backup charge source is alternator and 2nd backup a portable genny.
Nothing special about that. What's special is my BMS and the LTO starter.
What I push is that if you have proper stock alternator with internal temp control a very simple, relaible and very cost effective method (with Mitusbishi or Valeo you are in 600 Euro range) is agrofet + 2nd identical alternator with DIY bracket while everywhere they tell you, use a DC2DC charger and senseless castrate the alternator that can take care about itself or you need a big heavy duty alternator with external expensive regulator (eg wakespeed)...and that then delivers in quite a lot cases not that what was promised and cost you 2000Euro+ all in.

The normal case for majority out there is
A) coastal cruiser who comes back daily to habour and occasionally 2 or 3 days over a long weekend stays in a bay overnight. Main charge source shorepower, a bit solar that easliy fits and the 2 or 3 days charge with engine alternator. That's the big mass
B) the ones that go out for longer periodes but still go back to habour: stick as much solar as you can and max out your existing alternator, the alternator keeps it on a level you can use it, back in habour shorepower makes your bank really full.
C) lifeaboard and bluewater cruisers: stick max solar you can that normally covers your daily needs, oversized lithium bank and put heavy duty alternator replacing or additional to org. One so you harvest what you can when engine runs and for the seldom occasion when you get a negative charge delta from solar over time.
D) generator for high latitude vessel or monos with high energy demands (often cannot fit enough solar for that demand) where solar cannot harvest enough for your total daily needs or where the wife finds the solar destroying the optics of the precious vessel.
These are the 4 majority use cases, sure other exists but that's the 80% mass altogether.
A portable small genny is using B) and C) plus D) as emergency backup for the occasional use as they also have enough big shorepower charger to make use of it.

Interestingly my experience is just the opposite where they are sticking with stock alternator and generator setups . Yes agreed max solar and LiFePo4. Myself I don't have an electric galley. My stove is propane but I have a newwave 2 portable induction unit I use while in port. Eventually when my current inverter charger dies I will switch to pure sine inverter charger. The gas savings isn't worth the expense at the moment .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Interestingly my experience is just the opposite where they are sticking with stock alternator and generator setups . Yes agreed max solar and LiFePo4. Myself I don't have an electric galley. My stove is propane but I have a newwave 2 portable induction unit I use while in port. Eventually when my current inverter charger dies I will switch to pure sine inverter charger. The gas savings isn't worth the expense at the moment .

Sure if they have already a working genny they keep it and stock alternator, especially if regularly going into habour and can refill diesel tank. But the ones that order new or do a refit or upgrade they don't want a gen (anymore) unless the belong to D) use case. Just in the Lavezzi owner group 3 ripped out the generator lately, solar and big alternator work much better then the gen the gen weights a lot and takes up a lot storage space plus is a pain to maintain in the factory location.


Electric galley makes sense if you travel a lot plus have a lithium bank and need dozen adapters, need to run around and search for refill of your bottle which they don't wanna do because you have a different system then local. That's just a pita already in europe..also a security hazard for me.
Also if you are a cat and going to tropics, just much less heat and moisture inside the boat, they have enough space for a lot solar and a big lithium bank with big inverter. Also easy to install as no gimbal needed.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Sure if they have already a working genny they keep it and stock alternator, especially if regularly going into habour and can refill diesel tank. But the ones that order new or do a refit or upgrade they don't want a gen (anymore) unless the belong to D) use case. Just in the Lavezzi owner group 3 ripped out the generator lately, solar and big alternator work much better then the gen the gen weights a lot and takes up a lot storage space plus is a pain to maintain in the factory location.


Electric galley makes sense if you travel a lot plus have a lithium bank and need dozen adapters, need to run around and search for refill of your bottle which they don't wanna do because you have a different system then local. That's just a pita already in europe..also a security hazard for me.
Also if you are a cat and going to tropics, just much less heat and moisture inside the boat, they have enough space for a lot solar and a big lithium bank with big inverter. Also easy to install as no gimbal needed.

Most solar installs are not able to fully charge a lead acid battery unless they are partially charged in the morning by either a generator or engine. And LFP installs with an electric galley often don't have enough solar without a top off from a generator or engine.

When it is going to be used regularly, either daily or a few times a week, there is no question that a small generator is better. It uses less fuel. It's quieter (if installed properly, not on deck) and you are not putting hundreds or thousands of hours on an extremely expensive and difficult to replace engine.

When used as a backup. That you intend to meet your needs with solar and rarely use the engine, then an engine system without a generator makes more sense.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Most solar installs are not able to fully charge a lead acid battery unless they are partially charged in the morning by either a generator or engine. And LFP installs with an electric galley often don't have enough solar without a top off from a generator or engine.

When it is going to be used regularly, either daily or a few times a week, there is no question that a small generator is better. It uses less fuel. It's quieter (if installed properly, not on deck) and you are not putting hundreds or thousands of hours on an extremely expensive and difficult to replace engine.

When used as a backup. That you intend to meet your needs with solar and rarely use the engine, then an engine system without a generator makes more sense.

Electric galley doesn't need much AH , you need high current for a short time and with that got beefy inverters to run the rest. Every cat has enough room for solar to cover that easliy.

What eats AH is AC, freezers, starlink.

Who goes regularly into habour just needs a big bank and charge via shorepower. No gen needed.
Support lately an install with 1200AH at 48V and 2 multi 10kw and they go out 7 till 10 days and live off the bank and when in habour plug in and let the 2x multi charge everything up. The 2x10kw so you have enough shorepower charge. A bit solar that was easy to install to get a bit of daily consumption covered. No expensive solar arch or genny or integrel or heavy duty alternator. With EVE 280 or 304 cells at 80Euro that's a cheap high power system. And if not enough just add another 600AH.