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Old 10-05-2017, 05:39   #5791
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray View Post
I am not far away from taking my Mk2 BMS module through another hardware iteration... There would be value in having CAN on board and I already have a RJ45 socket.
While chatting up on CAN at 250kbit/s near-continuously is out of the question for a BMS due to the battery drain it would cause, I could still transmit at intervals and immediately put the transceiver back in low-power standby.
It would open direct integration on a NMEA2K bus with battery bank status messages.

Good thoughts about the MPPT converter, I have often kicked this idea around too. Regulators just need to be able to receive a setpoint. That setpoint can be modified at will to obtain the desired result without any further complications.
Finding the time to actually make it happen is the key here.
Before you get too far into a BMS design for marine Li systems, you might want to wait until the new ABYC Standards come out for lithium and high-capacity batteries. It is a slow process, but it's getting closer to fruition. A good number of very experienced Li battery players are involved.

It's possible that once the Standards are out, boats adding DIY Li systems might have difficulty getting insurance unless they carefully follow the guidelines in the Standards.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:19   #5792
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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"
<SNIP>
I definitely need to study the Arduino-based SAR/VSR. I quickly scanned it and I didn't see where it would stop the charging device rather than just putting it in to float. I suspect that I just overlooked it though and will go back later.
Make sure to download the current users guide (https://github.com/AlternatorRegulat...-Documentation), a key area is the CPEs (Charge Profile Entries) as they configure the PID engines. Appendix D shows the actual structure where you can see details what can be configured for each of the 6x potential ‘phases’ of the regulator. It also documents the built-in profiles, selectable via the DIP switches. If one needs something different then the default profiles, look at the $CPA, $CPO, $CPF, and $CPP ASCII configuration commands for more details on what each parameter means. There is no need to use the Arduino IDE, simple connect up a USB cable and send out ASCII commands via a terminal program.

Side note: originally someone was going to write a small app that would run on your computer/tablet/phone to simplify configuration steps. That app never got written (Anyone out there want to pitch in??). I pass this on as the ASCII commands were developed primarily for machine-to-machine communications vs. human-to-machine, hence they can be a bit simple.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:53   #5793
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSeaSpray View Post
I am not far away from taking my Mk2 BMS module through another hardware iteration... There would be value in having CAN on board and I already have a RJ45 socket.
While chatting up on CAN at 250kbit/s near-continuously is out of the question for a BMS due to the battery drain it would cause, I could still transmit at intervals and immediately put the transceiver back in low-power standby.
It would open direct integration on a NMEA2K bus with battery bank status messages.

Good thoughts about the MPPT converter, I have often kicked this idea around too. Regulators just need to be able to receive a setpoint. That setpoint can be modified at will to obtain the desired result without any further complications.
Finding the time to actually make it happen is the key here.
So – had not gotten into this before, but perhaps this is a good time: A significant addition to the 3rd generation Alternator Regulator is indeed the CAN. It primarily is intended to enable a cooperative ‘systems’ approach, no more different devices fighting each other for ‘what the battery needs’. It also allows for prioritization (Use Solar to max capability, back off on alternator), wiring simplification via remote sensing – and a series of redundancy / fail over capabilities as well (part of the reason for selecting CAN as the communications vehicle).

It is built on open-standards (J1939 + RV-C, with some small extensions) and have been have been using an Arduino Due to ‘mock up’ the BMS device - to develop the core CAN architecture. (And yes, J1939 allows some NMEA-2000 type messaging as well).


Am doing this with the hope the segments (Marine, RV, and off-grid) sees value in it and perhaps takes it up as a community effort. This summer we will be porting the CAN integration to a small MPPT controller, and would welcome others to pitch in -- such as a proper BMS (I am working on a simple battery monitor, but not the full BMS). Again, if they and/or the community sees value in such an effort…
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:26   #5794
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Before you get too far into a BMS design for marine Li systems, you might want to wait until the new ABYC Standards come out for lithium and high-capacity batteries. It is a slow process, but it's getting closer to fruition. A good number of very experienced Li battery players are involved.

It's possible that once the Standards are out, boats adding DIY Li systems might have difficulty getting insurance unless they carefully follow the guidelines in the Standards.
I am very far down that track, having worked on this for around 3 years and built a number of installations with custom BMS units. I don't expect issues as the key reason why I got into BMS development is because I couldn't find anything suitable in the first place.

You can bet most DIY arrangements will have issues with the standard. And so will some of the so-called professional setups we see with a kind of HPBMS in a box with one or two contactors sold for $1K.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:48   #5795
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post
Before you get too far into a BMS design for marine Li systems, you might want to wait until the new ABYC Standards come out for lithium and high-capacity batteries. It is a slow process, but it's getting closer to fruition. A good number of very experienced Li battery players are involved.

It's possible that once the Standards are out, boats adding DIY Li systems might have difficulty getting insurance unless they carefully follow the guidelines in the Standards.

Is good to hear progress is happening. They say '2017', any feel if something will come out by year end?
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:50   #5796
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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So – had not gotten into this before, but perhaps this is a good time: A significant addition to the 3rd generation Alternator Regulator is indeed the CAN. It primarily is intended to enable a cooperative ‘systems’ approach, no more different devices fighting each other for ‘what the battery needs’. It also allows for prioritization (Use Solar to max capability, back off on alternator), wiring simplification via remote sensing – and a series of redundancy / fail over capabilities as well (part of the reason for selecting CAN as the communications vehicle).

It is built on open-standards (J1939 + RV-C, with some small extensions) and have been have been using an Arduino Due to ‘mock up’ the BMS device - to develop the core CAN architecture. (And yes, J1939 allows some NMEA-2000 type messaging as well).

Am doing this with the hope the segments (Marine, RV, and off-grid) sees value in it and perhaps takes it up as a community effort. This summer we will be porting the CAN integration to a small MPPT controller, and would welcome others to pitch in -- such as a proper BMS (I am working on a simple battery monitor, but not the full BMS). Again, if they and/or the community sees value in such an effort…
Beware of power requirements, it is one thing to run a NMEA2K bus on a boat in use with everything going and another to have the bus active 24/7: not an option. There are a lot of things to think about in terms of CAN integration and operation.
I can see an avenue to leverage off the reliability of CAN and output battery data, but by using a strategy keeping the transceiver in standby most of the time. My initial consideration was using I2C through a P82B96, which can be run at low bit rates and doesn't have any clock requirements. I have started to think that CAN would offer more possibilities, but it comes with its own issues.

The consumption of an alternator regulator is essentially a moot point, but it is very different for a BMS or even a MPPT converter (or it will become useless/harmful in low light).

If you focus on your alternator controller, I will provide the BMS. The last thing we need I think is yet another one of those systems where nothing can work unless everything is interconnected with digital coms all over the place.
An alternator controller for lithium should be able to limit the battery voltage, limit the maximum alternator current and stop charging when the current has decayed down to a limit. Stop charging just means try to regulate at a level that is at or lower than the desired final SOC when the engine is stopped. It is pretty simple, it doesn't require "zero current control" and the like. You get that for free and you don't need CAN to get there.

Ideally, it should do just that "out of the box" and it would be in a good position to displace the Balmars and others, which are unable to provide that.

Having a COM port on it could allow the BMS to send a setpoint to the alternator, rather than use the same all the time, and modify the operation based on the battery management strategy.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:36   #5797
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

I would really like to see a standalone "control unit" that would re-direct charge current to one bank or another based on customizable priority rules.

Maybe could be part of a BMS project, but really, "meta" to any given bank or specific chemistry.

This should help integrate relatively "dumb" charge sources and overcome their limitations, for situations where the owner doesn't want to replace their stock alternator or sunk-cost fancy MPPT solar controller.

When ALL banks are full, charge sources that are in effect "free" like solar, dino-juice being burned for reasons other than just charging, could then be directed to heating hot water, freezing ice blocks or whatever.
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Old 10-05-2017, 13:15   #5798
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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I would really like to see a standalone "control unit" that would re-direct charge current to one bank or another based on customizable priority rules.

Maybe could be part of a BMS project, but really, "meta" to any given bank or specific chemistry.

This should help integrate relatively "dumb" charge sources and overcome their limitations, for situations where the owner doesn't want to replace their stock alternator or sunk-cost fancy MPPT solar controller.

When ALL banks are full, charge sources that are in effect "free" like solar, dino-juice being burned for reasons other than just charging, could then be directed to heating hot water, freezing ice blocks or whatever.
I have it on my bench now and yes, it could arguably even interface with a LA bank, even though this is not something I ever considered as LA charging matters are reasonably well taken care of by available technology when correctly configured.
The management of LAs is limited to trying to keep them full all the time as much as possible, they auto-balance and tolerate/benefit from light overcharging.
You would only be using energy management features basically.
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Old 10-05-2017, 13:22   #5799
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Imagine if the Nina, Pinta and Santa Marina has to wait for ABYC to come up with standards before the ships could have sailed to the new world. The Pioneers take the arrows in any new technology...
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Old 10-05-2017, 14:40   #5800
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

"Before you get too far into a BMS design for marine Li systems, you might want to wait until the new ABYC Standards come out for lithium and high-capacity batteries. It is a slow process, but it's getting closer to fruition. A good number of very experienced Li battery players are involved.

It's possible that once the Standards are out, boats adding DIY Li systems might have difficulty getting insurance unless they carefully follow the guidelines in the Standards"



I'd like to know who the good number of very experienced Li battery players are. Have they written any books on the subject? What kind of track record do they have? Or are they just declaring themselves experts so they can push their own outrageously expensive solutions. Has there been a rash of Li incidents that we need to get a handle on?

I have yet to see a turn key solution that is going to work for an owner who doesn't understand the technology. Watermakers don't do to well we people who don't understand them.

So by giving standards abyc will be legitimizing Li for a whole bunch of people that have that have no business being involved with it. From what I've seen, some of the most experienced Li people don't want to be involved with building systems for the masses.

Then on the other side of the coin, some commonsense rules might make it easier for the DIY guy to get insurance in the first place.

It's going to be really interesting to see what the "very experienced Li players" decide for us.
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Old 11-05-2017, 13:29   #5801
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

DNV-GL released guidelines for marine Li-ion systems long ago, no big deal in there. I had to request the document via e-mail, but it is otherwise free. I have uploaded it here for now and will leave it for a few weeks.
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Old 11-05-2017, 13:48   #5802
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Standards will help increase adoption rates, increased competition will bring "systems" pricing down, DIY will be straightforward using "open hardware" OTS just like lead, probably inside five years the niche mobile deep cycle markets will be minority lead.

All good things for almost everyone.

Making good bank by being a pioneer ahead of the curve is entirely justified and part of the process.
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Old 11-05-2017, 13:55   #5803
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Originally Posted by toddedger View Post
"Before you get too far into a BMS design for marine Li systems, you might want to wait until the new ABYC Standards come out for lithium and high-capacity batteries. It is a slow process, but it's getting closer to fruition. A good number of very experienced Li battery players are involved.

It's possible that once the Standards are out, boats adding DIY Li systems might have difficulty getting insurance unless they carefully follow the guidelines in the Standards"



I'd like to know who the good number of very experienced Li battery players are. Have they written any books on the subject? What kind of track record do they have? Or are they just declaring themselves experts so they can push their own outrageously expensive solutions. Has there been a rash of Li incidents that we need to get a handle on?

I have yet to see a turn key solution that is going to work for an owner who doesn't understand the technology. Watermakers don't do to well we people who don't understand them.

So by giving standards abyc will be legitimizing Li for a whole bunch of people that have that have no business being involved with it. From what I've seen, some of the most experienced Li people don't want to be involved with building systems for the masses.

Then on the other side of the coin, some commonsense rules might make it easier for the DIY guy to get insurance in the first place.

It's going to be really interesting to see what the "very experienced Li players" decide for us.
Similar cast of characters who have supported ABYC for many years. Books? Yes, perhaps the most well-know marine electrical systems author is part of the group. Also Maine Sail, frequent contributor here, along with several from marine industry suppliers. Not exactly a bunch of clowns.
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Old 11-05-2017, 14:01   #5804
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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DNV-GL released guidelines for marine Li-ion systems long ago, no big deal in there. I had to request the document via e-mail, but it is otherwise free. I have uploaded it here for now and will leave it for a few weeks.
That is a great document. Although intended for "Large Maritime Battery Systems" rather than for (relatively) small yachts, it is certainly comprehensive and has a lot of valid info.

However it is far larger than that what ABYC is focused on, where the intent is something more comprehensible to the average yacht systems installer. Also, I don't think that DNV-GL (AFAIK) would have any legal bearing on recreational marine applications here in North America, as would ABYC.
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Old 11-05-2017, 20:09   #5805
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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That is a great document. Although intended for "Large Maritime Battery Systems" rather than for (relatively) small yachts, it is certainly comprehensive and has a lot of valid info.

However it is far larger than that what ABYC is focused on, where the intent is something more comprehensible to the average yacht systems installer. Also, I don't think that DNV-GL (AFAIK) would have any legal bearing on recreational marine applications here in North America, as would ABYC.
Yes it is larger, it is aimed at the shipping industry... if you comply with the guidelines of one of the largest classification societies in the world, well... you do have something to stand on no matter where you are.
ABYC can say whatever it wants and it doesn't make it a legal requirement. It becomes one when an authority mandates compliance with the standard, same as for any engineering standard. That is one step further and it might happen or not. Meanwhile private bodies like insurers, marina operators and the like can still require compliance, it is their right to do so.

However, you can bet that they will say something that won't be much different than DNV-GL, or they will look like a bunch of clowns precisely, which is why I uploaded the file. What they will do is add a whole heap of fluff aimed at installers and you will have to use pink wire with little green stripes.
Cell-level protection and cell temperature sensors will be the foundation of it all, possibly one sensor per cell. I have been using one sensor per pair of cells so far, located between them to pick up both, but last year I increased the number of temperature sensor inputs in case this happens.
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