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Old 21-01-2017, 03:41   #16
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

We have 1000AH Lifepo4 from winston onboard. They are great. Plus we have 230AH Lifepo4 for start/windlass/thruster. Will never have lead or agm again.
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Old 21-01-2017, 05:52   #17
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

I have 8 x 200Ah Sinopoly for my 12V 400Ah housebank and a 80Ah lead acid back up battery.
I use the same batteries to start the motors.
Our system is very simple. The 1100W solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay, rather then replacing the controllers with controllers suitable for li-po4.
A Cellog 8M monitors the cells. The batteries were balanced during installation, never needed to re-balance, they are close to perfect.
When the motors are running and the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds, and I turn the Li-Po4 off and connect through the battery selection switch to the 80A Lead acid. I'm still using the standard 80A Hitachi alternator,no need to replace.
We converted 16 month ago, using previously 600AH LA deep cycle , and are very happy with our conversion. Since, we have added a 12V beer fridge, el. coffee maker, el.rice cooker and el. water jug. Power to burn!
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Old 21-01-2017, 07:46   #18
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman View Post
I have 8 x 200Ah Sinopoly for my 12V 400Ah housebank and a 80Ah lead acid back up battery.
I use the same batteries to start the motors.
Our system is very simple. The 1100W solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay, rather then replacing the controllers with controllers suitable for li-po4.
A Cellog 8M monitors the cells. The batteries were balanced during installation, never needed to re-balance, they are close to perfect.
When the motors are running and the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds, and I turn the Li-Po4 off and connect through the battery selection switch to the 80A Lead acid. I'm still using the standard 80A Hitachi alternator,no need to replace.
We converted 16 month ago, using previously 600AH LA deep cycle , and are very happy with our conversion. Since, we have added a 12V beer fridge, el. coffee maker, el.rice cooker and el. water jug. Power to burn!
I really, really hope this works for you, and you never have any issues. But I have to point out that this is exactly the type of setup that has lead to a lot of cooked batteries.

1) Monitoring the bank voltage instead of cell voltage leaves room for a weak cell to cause the charger to cook the entire bank in a hurry.

2) no low voltage cut off. While lifepo can be safely discharged lower than FLA if you go too far the batteries will never recover

3) manual action needed to stop charging. All it takes I should one mistake and thousands of dollars of batteries are toast

4) it depends on the solar relay you have, but if it doesn't use a seperate lead to check voltage that carries no voltage, it is not uncommon to get bad readings.

5) With your alternator you are limited in how much power you can put back into the batteries. You could probably be running a 200amp alternator safely. This isn't dangerously, it just means you are missing one of the major benefits of lifepo, namely quick recharging.

Anyone who is even considering lifepo really should start with LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com . It won't tall you everything youneed to know, but it will outline where the danger zones are.
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Old 21-01-2017, 09:15   #19
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I really, really hope this works for you, and you never have any issues. But I have to point out that this is exactly the type of setup that has lead to a lot of cooked batteries.
Can't see how

1) Monitoring the bank voltage instead of cell voltage leaves room for a weak cell to cause the charger to cook the entire bank in a hurry.
My Cellog 8M is monitoring Cells & max & min voltages, with automatic disconnect of the entire bank.
2) no low voltage cut off. While lifepo can be safely discharged lower than FLA if you go too far the batteries will never recover
Cellog 8M, see above
3) manual action needed to stop charging. All it takes I should one mistake and thousands of dollars of batteries are toast
I am on the boat when the motor is running, because we will be under way. We have 1100W solar & a small generator to charge when necessary.
4) it depends on the solar relay you have, but if it doesn't use a seperate lead to check voltage that carries no voltage, it is not uncommon to get bad readings.
I use quality equipment and know what I'm doing.
5) With your alternator you are limited in how much power you can put back into the batteries. You could probably be running a 200amp alternator safely. This isn't dangerously, it just means you are missing one of the major benefits of lifepo, namely quick recharging.
Solar is the way to charge! Why would you install a 200A alternator & most likely a $600 smart charger when you have 1100W solar? You've got to be joking.
yone who is even considering lifepo really should start with LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com . It won't tall you everything youneed to know, but it will outline where the danger zones are.
I agree with you last paragraph, spend a lot of time studying the forums.
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Old 21-01-2017, 10:11   #20
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman View Post
solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay,
...
When the motors are running and the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds
Would appreciate info on these two components, ideally enough to source?
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Old 21-01-2017, 10:29   #21
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Would appreciate info on these two components, ideally enough to source?
ProgressiveRC <contact@progressiverc.com> for the Cellog 8M.

Electric Car Company, for fuses, voltage sensing relays & HD contactors.
I also use an Expert Pro Battery monitor for alarms.
I use the 5740 meter for voltage sensing & monitoring.
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Old 21-01-2017, 13:35   #22
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

No need to replace everything when converting to Li-po4, as you can override the high disconnect of solar or alternator with with the voltage sensing relays. The whole system cost me approx $4000 for 400Ah. Of course there are people who would like you to spend double or more on their systems, putting the Li-po4 out of reach for most cruisers.
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Old 21-01-2017, 16:05   #23
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman View Post
solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay
...
the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Would appreciate info on these two components, ideally enough to source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman View Post
Electric Car Company, for fuses, voltage sensing relays & HD contactors.
Wow that's way too generic a name, both for trademark and Google.

Is this what you mean?

http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/

I'd really appreciate SKU or links if you have time, figuring how to put this stuff together from catalog descriptions is a challenge 8-)
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Old 22-01-2017, 05:56   #24
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

overvoltage alarm is set at 14V, not 13.9V as I wrote previously.
The Cellog M8 came from Progressive RC.
I suggest you search the Li-Po4 forum for the Kiss Li-Po circuit diagram.
I modified the circuits to overide the solar charger, as I could not adjust the controller to the required voltage.
I also added the 80 Ah LA battery to have emergency power in case of a shut down of the Li-po4 system in a fault condition.
I switch to the LA battery when the alternator voltage gets up to 14V. I do this manually, but it could be done automatically, if so desired.
Hope this helps.
Most important to read the forum, there is a lot of very good info.
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Old 22-01-2017, 13:33   #25
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I really, really hope this works for you, and you never have any issues. But I have to point out that this is exactly the type of setup that has lead to a lot of cooked batteries.

1) Monitoring the bank voltage instead of cell voltage leaves room for a weak cell to cause the charger to cook the entire bank in a hurry.

2) no low voltage cut off. While lifepo can be safely discharged lower than FLA if you go too far the batteries will never recover

3) manual action needed to stop charging. All it takes I should one mistake and thousands of dollars of batteries are toast

4) it depends on the solar relay you have, but if it doesn't use a seperate lead to check voltage that carries no voltage, it is not uncommon to get bad readings.

5) With your alternator you are limited in how much power you can put back into the batteries. You could probably be running a 200amp alternator safely. This isn't dangerously, it just means you are missing one of the major benefits of lifepo, namely quick recharging.

Anyone who is even considering lifepo really should start with LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com . It won't tall you everything youneed to know, but it will outline where the danger zones are.
Stumble. Do you have a lifepo system?
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Old 22-01-2017, 13:34   #26
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Stumble. Do you have a lifepo system?
Can you describe it.
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Old 22-01-2017, 22:47   #27
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Stumble. Do you have a lifepo system?
Nope, I don't have any intentions of doing anything but coastal cruising for the next decade or so, so FLA work for me pretty well for now. If I was going I might seriously consider them, but as part of a complete system.

My objection to them is not with the technology itself. I actually think it is a huge step in the right direction, and the financials are actually looking pretty good as well. My concern is that there are a lot of lifepo systems that have been cooked, even by some very experienced people.

If they were the same price a single FLA it wouldn't be an issue at all. But we are talking about thousands of dollars in batteries with a relatively high failure rate.


To me they are in the same catagory as a high performance race boat. In the right hands they can be sailed safely in awful conditions and with amazing speeds. But in the wrong hands they can be dangerous.

I am just not sure that lifepo is really ready for the average cruiser. I have no doubt that they will get there but I still need to be convinced.
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Old 25-07-2017, 16:50   #28
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Trials and tribulations of one cruiser's migration to li-ion. An interesting read but you need to read all three posting:

Upgrading the Batteries: Lithium Ion on a Sailboat - Sailing Luna Sea

Lithium Ion Battery Update: Our Current Issue - Sailing Luna Sea

Lithium Ion Battery Update: More Solar = Happy Batteries! - Sailing Luna Sea
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Old 25-07-2017, 18:16   #29
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I am just not sure that lifepo is really ready for the average cruiser.
I agree, but my opinion of "average" anything is pretty low.

Someone who is **interested** in learning how to take care, and willing to buy a turnkey system from Victron or Ocean Planet, IMO no problem.

Someone who doesn't want to know, definitely not.
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Old 25-07-2017, 23:57   #30
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks

The Youtube couple Gone with the Wynns, have an expensive LiFePO4 battery bank on board. Looking through their equipment list, they don't have any special alternators or the like. They've not reported back any problems in the year or so they've been sailing.
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