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21-01-2017, 03:41
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Norway / Oslo
Boat: Jeanneau 42 DS
Posts: 139
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
We have 1000AH Lifepo4 from winston onboard. They are great. Plus we have 230AH Lifepo4 for start/windlass/thruster. Will never have lead or agm again.
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21-01-2017, 05:52
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western Caribbean
Boat: 48' Alu Cat
Posts: 218
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
I have 8 x 200Ah Sinopoly for my 12V 400Ah housebank and a 80Ah lead acid back up battery.
I use the same batteries to start the motors.
Our system is very simple. The 1100W solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay, rather then replacing the controllers with controllers suitable for li-po4.
A Cellog 8M monitors the cells. The batteries were balanced during installation, never needed to re-balance, they are close to perfect.
When the motors are running and the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds, and I turn the Li-Po4 off and connect through the battery selection switch to the 80A Lead acid. I'm still using the standard 80A Hitachi alternator,no need to replace.
We converted 16 month ago, using previously 600AH LA deep cycle , and are very happy with our conversion. Since, we have added a 12V beer fridge, el. coffee maker, el.rice cooker and el. water jug. Power to burn!
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21-01-2017, 07:46
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#18
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman
I have 8 x 200Ah Sinopoly for my 12V 400Ah housebank and a 80Ah lead acid back up battery.
I use the same batteries to start the motors.
Our system is very simple. The 1100W solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay, rather then replacing the controllers with controllers suitable for li-po4.
A Cellog 8M monitors the cells. The batteries were balanced during installation, never needed to re-balance, they are close to perfect.
When the motors are running and the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds, and I turn the Li-Po4 off and connect through the battery selection switch to the 80A Lead acid. I'm still using the standard 80A Hitachi alternator,no need to replace.
We converted 16 month ago, using previously 600AH LA deep cycle , and are very happy with our conversion. Since, we have added a 12V beer fridge, el. coffee maker, el.rice cooker and el. water jug. Power to burn!
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I really, really hope this works for you, and you never have any issues. But I have to point out that this is exactly the type of setup that has lead to a lot of cooked batteries.
1) Monitoring the bank voltage instead of cell voltage leaves room for a weak cell to cause the charger to cook the entire bank in a hurry.
2) no low voltage cut off. While lifepo can be safely discharged lower than FLA if you go too far the batteries will never recover
3) manual action needed to stop charging. All it takes I should one mistake and thousands of dollars of batteries are toast
4) it depends on the solar relay you have, but if it doesn't use a seperate lead to check voltage that carries no voltage, it is not uncommon to get bad readings.
5) With your alternator you are limited in how much power you can put back into the batteries. You could probably be running a 200amp alternator safely. This isn't dangerously, it just means you are missing one of the major benefits of lifepo, namely quick recharging.
Anyone who is even considering lifepo really should start with LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com . It won't tall you everything youneed to know, but it will outline where the danger zones are.
__________________
Greg
- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
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21-01-2017, 09:15
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western Caribbean
Boat: 48' Alu Cat
Posts: 218
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble
I really, really hope this works for you, and you never have any issues. But I have to point out that this is exactly the type of setup that has lead to a lot of cooked batteries.
Can't see how
1) Monitoring the bank voltage instead of cell voltage leaves room for a weak cell to cause the charger to cook the entire bank in a hurry.
My Cellog 8M is monitoring Cells & max & min voltages, with automatic disconnect of the entire bank.
2) no low voltage cut off. While lifepo can be safely discharged lower than FLA if you go too far the batteries will never recover
Cellog 8M, see above
3) manual action needed to stop charging. All it takes I should one mistake and thousands of dollars of batteries are toast
I am on the boat when the motor is running, because we will be under way. We have 1100W solar & a small generator to charge when necessary.
4) it depends on the solar relay you have, but if it doesn't use a seperate lead to check voltage that carries no voltage, it is not uncommon to get bad readings.
I use quality equipment and know what I'm doing.
5) With your alternator you are limited in how much power you can put back into the batteries. You could probably be running a 200amp alternator safely. This isn't dangerously, it just means you are missing one of the major benefits of lifepo, namely quick recharging.
Solar is the way to charge! Why would you install a 200A alternator & most likely a $600 smart charger when you have 1100W solar? You've got to be joking.
yone who is even considering lifepo really should start with LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com . It won't tall you everything youneed to know, but it will outline where the danger zones are.
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I agree with you last paragraph, spend a lot of time studying the forums.
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21-01-2017, 10:11
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#20
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman
solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay,
...
When the motors are running and the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds
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Would appreciate info on these two components, ideally enough to source?
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21-01-2017, 10:29
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western Caribbean
Boat: 48' Alu Cat
Posts: 218
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Would appreciate info on these two components, ideally enough to source?
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ProgressiveRC <contact@progressiverc.com> for the Cellog 8M.
Electric Car Company, for fuses, voltage sensing relays & HD contactors.
I also use an Expert Pro Battery monitor for alarms.
I use the 5740 meter for voltage sensing & monitoring.
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21-01-2017, 13:35
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western Caribbean
Boat: 48' Alu Cat
Posts: 218
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
No need to replace everything when converting to Li-po4, as you can override the high disconnect of solar or alternator with with the voltage sensing relays. The whole system cost me approx $4000 for 400Ah. Of course there are people who would like you to spend double or more on their systems, putting the Li-po4 out of reach for most cruisers.
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21-01-2017, 16:05
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#23
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman
solar panel regulators are turned off at 13.9V with a voltage sensing relay
...
the charge voltage approaches 13.9v, my high voltage alarm sounds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Would appreciate info on these two components, ideally enough to source?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seman
Electric Car Company, for fuses, voltage sensing relays & HD contactors.
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Wow that's way too generic a name, both for trademark and Google.
Is this what you mean?
http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/
I'd really appreciate SKU or links if you have time, figuring how to put this stuff together from catalog descriptions is a challenge 8-)
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22-01-2017, 05:56
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western Caribbean
Boat: 48' Alu Cat
Posts: 218
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
overvoltage alarm is set at 14V, not 13.9V as I wrote previously.
The Cellog M8 came from Progressive RC.
I suggest you search the Li-Po4 forum for the Kiss Li-Po circuit diagram.
I modified the circuits to overide the solar charger, as I could not adjust the controller to the required voltage.
I also added the 80 Ah LA battery to have emergency power in case of a shut down of the Li-po4 system in a fault condition.
I switch to the LA battery when the alternator voltage gets up to 14V. I do this manually, but it could be done automatically, if so desired.
Hope this helps.
Most important to read the forum, there is a lot of very good info.
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22-01-2017, 13:33
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: on board, Australia
Boat: 11meter Power catamaran
Posts: 3,648
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble
I really, really hope this works for you, and you never have any issues. But I have to point out that this is exactly the type of setup that has lead to a lot of cooked batteries.
1) Monitoring the bank voltage instead of cell voltage leaves room for a weak cell to cause the charger to cook the entire bank in a hurry.
2) no low voltage cut off. While lifepo can be safely discharged lower than FLA if you go too far the batteries will never recover
3) manual action needed to stop charging. All it takes I should one mistake and thousands of dollars of batteries are toast
4) it depends on the solar relay you have, but if it doesn't use a seperate lead to check voltage that carries no voltage, it is not uncommon to get bad readings.
5) With your alternator you are limited in how much power you can put back into the batteries. You could probably be running a 200amp alternator safely. This isn't dangerously, it just means you are missing one of the major benefits of lifepo, namely quick recharging.
Anyone who is even considering lifepo really should start with LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com . It won't tall you everything youneed to know, but it will outline where the danger zones are.
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Stumble. Do you have a lifepo system?
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22-01-2017, 13:34
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: on board, Australia
Boat: 11meter Power catamaran
Posts: 3,648
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder
Stumble. Do you have a lifepo system?
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Can you describe it.
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22-01-2017, 22:47
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#27
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder
Stumble. Do you have a lifepo system?
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Nope, I don't have any intentions of doing anything but coastal cruising for the next decade or so, so FLA work for me pretty well for now. If I was going I might seriously consider them, but as part of a complete system.
My objection to them is not with the technology itself. I actually think it is a huge step in the right direction, and the financials are actually looking pretty good as well. My concern is that there are a lot of lifepo systems that have been cooked, even by some very experienced people.
If they were the same price a single FLA it wouldn't be an issue at all. But we are talking about thousands of dollars in batteries with a relatively high failure rate.
To me they are in the same catagory as a high performance race boat. In the right hands they can be sailed safely in awful conditions and with amazing speeds. But in the wrong hands they can be dangerous.
I am just not sure that lifepo is really ready for the average cruiser. I have no doubt that they will get there but I still need to be convinced.
__________________
Greg
- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
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25-07-2017, 16:50
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Novato, California
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 288
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
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25-07-2017, 18:16
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#29
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble
I am just not sure that lifepo is really ready for the average cruiser.
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I agree, but my opinion of "average" anything is pretty low.
Someone who is **interested** in learning how to take care, and willing to buy a turnkey system from Victron or Ocean Planet, IMO no problem.
Someone who doesn't want to know, definitely not.
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25-07-2017, 23:57
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: ABC's
Boat: Prout Snowgoose 35
Posts: 1,756
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Re: Li-ion Battery Banks
The Youtube couple Gone with the Wynns, have an expensive LiFePO4 battery bank on board. Looking through their equipment list, they don't have any special alternators or the like. They've not reported back any problems in the year or so they've been sailing.
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