LFP 48V Battery & Smart AC Inverter Charger

[nfbr]

I think where he was going, might be similar to where we are.
I don't have a generator. I never generator charge. It's either Solar, DC Alternator or (rare) Shore Power.
On that basis, I don't actually need a Multi. I could for shore power
a) Charge / Invert
b) Any cheap thing that switches between somehow.

Is it reliable? Valid but possibly dated argument. Most of my marine stuff isn't particularly reliable vs residential (compare Fridges or Toilets)

So if you think, no generator, not, never. There are different ways.

And with 48V, 20KW DC charging is cheap compared to a generator.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by nfbr

I think where he was going, might be similar to where we are.
I don't have a generator. I never generator charge. It's either Solar, DC Alternator or (rare) Shore Power.
On that basis, I don't actually need a Multi. I could for shore power
a) Charge / Invert
b) Any cheap thing that switches between somehow.

Is it reliable? Valid but possibly dated argument. Most of my marine stuff isn't particularly reliable vs residential (compare Fridges or Toilets)

So if you think, no generator, not, never. There are different ways.

And with 48V, 20KW DC charging is cheap compared to a generator.

Hello, I'm not against using a generator on a boat when necessary. The claim that the off-grid or hybrid smart SOLAR&AC charger inverter used in my project wouldn't support a generator smaller than its labeled rating is incorrect.

I haven't had the opportunity to try this yet, but the responses from the AI ​​and common sense suggest it's possible. All you need to do is set the AC input current limit of the device to the correct value and then start the generator.

I researched the answers to these questions from AI. Anyone can try AI queries.

“Can the off-grid smart solar and AC charger inverter be charged with a generator with a power lower than the maximum power of the inverter device after the AC input-output current limiting setting is reduced?”

“While the generator is operating in this way, is the energy from the solar panels also used to charge the batteries?”

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Hello, I'm not against using a generator on a boat when necessary. The claim that the off-grid or hybrid smart SOLAR&AC charger inverter used in my project wouldn't support a generator smaller than its labeled rating is incorrect.

I haven't had the opportunity to try this yet, but the responses from the AI ​​and common sense suggest it's possible. All you need to do is set the AC input current limit of the device to the correct value and then start the generator.

I researched the answers to these questions from AI. Anyone can try AI queries.

“Can the off-grid smart solar and AC charger inverter be charged with a generator with a power lower than the maximum power of the inverter device after the AC input-output current limiting setting is reduced?”

“While the generator is operating in this way, is the energy from the solar panels also used to charge the batteries?”

It seems you still didn't understand what we were talking about.


Of course you can run the generator and charge, and charge from solar at the same time. There is no limitation or problem with this with any system.


The problem is with AC power. Without the facility to synchronize the inverter to the other AC power source, YOU CAN'T USE THEM AT THE SAME TIME. So if you start up the generator or connect to shore power, you can use EITHER that AC source, OR the inverter, as a source of AC power, NOT both, unless you have Power Assist.


A way around this, which I suggested in a previous post, is to have a separate charger. Then you can take ALL your AC power from the inverter, but you can put power on the DC bus sourced from shore power or generator power via the separate charger, to reduce the rate at which the inverter is withdrawing power from the batteries.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It seems you still didn't understand what we were talking about.


Of course you can run the generator and charge, and charge from solar at the same time. There is no limitation or problem with this with any system.


The problem is with AC power. Without the facility to synchronize the inverter to the other AC power source, YOU CAN'T USE THEM AT THE SAME TIME. So if you start up the generator or connect to shore power, you can use EITHER that AC source, OR the inverter, as a source of AC power, NOT both, unless you have Power Assist.


A way around this, which I suggested in a previous post, is to have a separate charger. Then you can take ALL your AC power from the inverter, but you can put power on the DC bus sourced from shore power or generator power via the separate charger, to reduce the rate at which the inverter is withdrawing power from the batteries.

Using a generator is only a possibility in the future. Planning for this possibility, such as purchasing a generator upfront and creating a dedicated space on the boat, isn't an option for me. Even if I need a generator in the future, having the PowerAssist feature on the inverter I use isn't crucial for me. You don't understand that either.

Furthermore, three brands (Victron, Outback, and Scheneider) have smart hybrid solar and AC charger inverters with features similar to PowerAssist. Those interested in using this feature can purchase these devices.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Sorry, I need to correct the typo in the post above: Victron, Outback and Scheneider have AC chargers & inverters with features similar to PowerAssist, but they do not have integrated solar charger MPPTs.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Using a generator is only a possibility in the future. Planning for this possibility, such as purchasing a generator upfront and creating a dedicated space on the boat, isn't an option for me. Even if I need a generator in the future, having the PowerAssist feature on the inverter I use isn't crucial for me. You don't understand that either.

I would encourage you to make this decision before starting the project. There are significant differences between setting up a yacht to rely on solar versus an electrical system designed to incorporate a generator.

This involves some planning on your likely energy consumption. Some of your estimated electrical loads, such as 2kW AC winch operated for an hour a day, don’t exist on a yacht; others, such as operating one or two 2 kW electric heaters for use in winter via solar power, are unrealistic.

Starting from scratch gives you the opportunity to design a system that will comfortably meet your needs . Some further planning around your likely energy usage and production would be helpful.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I would encourage you to make this decision before starting the project. There are significant differences between setting up a yacht to rely on solar versus an electrical system designed to incorporate a generator.

This involves some planning on your likely energy consumption. Some of your estimated electrical loads, such as 2kW AC winch operated for an hour a day, don’t exist on a yacht; others, such as operating one or two 2 kW electric heaters for use in winter via solar power, are unrealistic.

Starting from scratch gives you the opportunity to design a system that will comfortably meet your needs . Some further planning around your likely energy usage and production would be helpful.

A 2 kW AC winch is an imaginary load. This is merely an imaginary device, as it serves as an example of a device that could potentially overload the inverter in unusual circumstances. There's no such device on the boat. It's possible to use 1 kW heaters. Thank you for your advice.

Of course, all DC and AC consumption is calculated based on power and usage time, and total daily energy needs are calculated, taking into account various weather conditions for both summer and winter. It's possible to supplement the winter deficit with a small, portable generator at sea and shore power in the marina.

[coull]

Ive just fitted a solar system at home the same as id fit on my boat, the only problem is where to put 22 solar panels !
But theres flexible high power water proof ones now Id go for.

I spent about 3k €
Growatt 3500w inverter €300 secondhand
22 panels about 80 euros each bifacial 615 w
Goodbye expensive grid and no power cuts...

I started with one LIPO battery but have increased to 6 for cloudy days etc.
total 10kw feel this is about right

Its normally fully charged by 12 am, can use washing machine etc hot water heater, electric radiator, central heating uses oil, tv etc

live from Spain

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by coull

Ive just fitted a solar system at home the same as id fit on my boat, the only problem is where to put 22 solar panels !
But theres flexible high power water proof ones now Id go for.

I spent about 3k €
Growatt 3500w inverter €300 secondhand
22 panels about 80 euros each bifacial 615 w
Goodbye expensive grid and no power cuts...

I started with one LIPO battery but have increased to 6 for cloudy days etc.
total 10kw feel this is about right

Its normally fully charged by 12 am, can use washing machine etc hot water heater, electric radiator, central heating uses oil, tv etc

live from Spain

Offgrid Solar and AC Charger Inverters are quite diverse, but it's important to distinguish those suitable for boat use. The options become quite limited when considering devices with IP65 sealing, two or more MPPT inputs, quiet operation, generator support, a good app interface, and remote control via Wi-Fi.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by coull

Ive just fitted a solar system at home the same as id fit on my boat, the only problem is where to put 22 solar panels !
But theres flexible high power water proof ones now Id go for.

I spent about 3k €
Growatt 3500w inverter €300 secondhand
22 panels about 80 euros each bifacial 615 w
Goodbye expensive grid and no power cuts...

I started with one LIPO battery but have increased to 6 for cloudy days etc.
total 10kw feel this is about right

Its normally fully charged by 12 am, can use washing machine etc hot water heater, electric radiator, central heating uses oil, tv etc

live from Spain

You can save a lot of energy by switching from electric radiator to heat pump. A split unit A/C in reverse heat mode is efficient and low cost.
The reason that they are much more efficient is because they take the heat that is still in the air, concentrating it before bringing it inside… i.e. move heat instead of producing it

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm not aware that LFP power systems has widely affected how people use AC power on board. We live on board more or less like at home so we have washer/dryer, induction cooking, etc. etc. etc., but we've had that for decades.


48V is great, and especially what concerns alternators (they run cooler for a given amount of power).


But 24v works fine too. I don't know why you would need 10.2kW of inverter power. 3000VA is plenty for most people. 5000VA in the worst case (I'll be converting to that soon). Never heard of anyone on less than a superyacht with crew of 10, who needed more than that.


I also don't know why you would want to integrate solar control with the inverter. Just use a separate controller.


And if you can't program the charge profile, then run, don't walk away from that device. You won't be able to use it with LiFePo4 batteries.

3000VA is not enough for a full electric galley, 5000VA is bare minimum and 9-10kVA is sufficently speced with some overhead for very hot days. Its VA not watt which eg in case of the 3000VA Multi is just 2200W continious at 30 degrees celcius. Now add the bad cos pi or power factor of a microwave or a 3-4 burner induction stove and you can run max a 1500W one.
And thats the 230/240V European view, the 120V 3000VA multi is a joke and barely sufficent for anything serious in AC loads.

Using an all integrated unit has all it pro and cons like everything on a vessel and eg many cats run household fridge and freezers 24/7/365 on 120/230V AC, electric galley...and AC usage is constantly rising.
The biggest issue using these all in one is that often the MPPT part needs quite high voltages as optimise for grid solar install, which is no problem on big roofs running multiple panels in series without shading. On a boat it the exact opposite space is premium, you avoid series connection wherever you can and a lot of shading.
Thats why on a boat having it seperate is favorable but if you can solve this issue or live with the downside=less harvest its no problem to use them.
Also don't forget these a lot of these all in one from eg Deye have only HF inverters, not Hybrid LF like Multi which have much less sudge load capacities which you need for AC, induction and microwaves. You get what you pay for.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Loredo

Do you have a full electric galley? NO propane? When one hates to run a generator...that answers your concern about 10KW or more inverter power. Besides the fact that I'm a firm believer in using (most of the time) about 50% of the rated power of everything. Stuff lasts longer this way. BTW, I've never run the AC on battery power. Never needed to. Yet, it's nice to know that I could.


The real challenge with the LFP is charging in a reasonable time. Means, whatever AC charger one might already have with lead, switching to LFP that charger becomes a joke. A hybrid inverter with it's ample charge power comes in handy.

Absolutely correct. Many incl me have no generator, except 2 little 1000W 2-stroke emergency ones, just enough solar and a big LFP bank.

Regarding the hybrid inverter, just watch Will Prowse videos as he is regularly testing them and proof to you which of these chinese crackers are good ones and which to run from. Some have a surprisingly high quality but there's also a lot of garbage out there.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Offgrid Solar and AC Charger Inverters are quite diverse, but it's important to distinguish those suitable for boat use. The options become quite limited when considering devices with IP65 sealing, two or more MPPT inputs, quiet operation, generator support, a good app interface, and remote control via Wi-Fi.

In one way correct but a Victron multi has no ip65 rating and thats also not needed for boat use.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

In one way correct but a Victron multi has no ip65 rating and thats also not needed for boat use.

I believe this feature is very beneficial when using a Smart Solar & AC Charger Inverter with IP65 insulation on a boat. High humidity and the oxidizing effects of the sea, along with the accumulation of dust carried by the air circulating inside the device, can cause long-term problems. IP65 insulation ensures the device will perform better in this environment, and the warranty period will be correspondingly longer.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

3000VA is not enough for a full electric galley, 5000VA is bare minimum and 9-10kVA is sufficently speced with some overhead for very hot days. Its VA not watt which eg in case of the 3000VA Multi is just 2200W continious at 30 degrees celcius. Now add the bad cos pi or power factor of a microwave or a 3-4 burner induction stove and you can run max a 1500W one.
And thats the 230/240V European view, the 120V 3000VA multi is a joke and barely sufficent for anything serious in AC loads.

Using an all integrated unit has all it pro and cons like everything on a vessel and eg many cats run household fridge and freezers 24/7/365 on 120/230V AC, electric galley...and AC usage is constantly rising.
The biggest issue using these all in one is that often the MPPT part needs quite high voltages as optimise for grid solar install, which is no problem on big roofs running multiple panels in series without shading. On a boat it the exact opposite space is premium, you avoid series connection wherever you can and a lot of shading.
Thats why on a boat having it seperate is favorable but if you can solve this issue or live with the downside=less harvest its no problem to use them.
Also don't forget these a lot of these all in one from eg Deye have only HF inverters, not Hybrid LF like Multi which have much less sudge load capacities which you need for AC, induction and microwaves. You get what you pay for.

Yes, the Smart Solar & AC Charger Inverter requires a high DC input voltage. Choosing the right solar panel to reach this voltage is crucial. 72-cell panels have an operating voltage of around 37-38 volts. A very large panel can produce an operating voltage of around 50V. For the inverter to operate, you need to connect at least three or four of these panels in series. A Smart Solar & AC Charger Inverter, which has two MPPT inputs, requires a series connection of at least 2x4 or 2x3 large solar panels. To install solar panels with a total power of 3000-3600 watts at the rear of the boat, you need approximately 20 m² of space. I believe this space is only achievable on a large catamaran.

If solar power is in the 1000-2000 Wp range, it's possible to choose a lower-power Smart Solar & AC Charger Inverter with a single MPPT input. The only disadvantage of using these devices on a boat is that boats don't have enough space to accommodate solar panels to meet their MPPT capacity.

Still, I believe these devices can be used on boats. We know that HF ​​inverters can handle power fluctuations twice their nominal power rating. While I can't guarantee that such fluctuations won't occur on a boat, I can say that the likelihood of power fluctuations will decrease as the instantaneous power capacity of the 48V LFP battery bank, BMS, and HF inverter power increases.

If there isn't enough space on the boat for a solar panel of sufficient capacity, the energy needs can be met with an AC generator. In this case, using a Smart AC Charger Inverter and large-capacity LFP batteries makes sense.

Since a large portion of the energy consumed on the boat can be met with AC energy, you don't have to make large investments such as LFP conversion of low-voltage batteries or LFP adaptation of the alternator. By using a 48-volt LFP battery of sufficient capacity isolated from the existing DC system and Smart Solar & AC Charger Inverters, you can convert AC power to the energy required by the low-voltage DC system. It's economical to retrofit existing battery banks with AC-DC converters. Many boats already have these AC-DC converter devices. Besides, I think isolated high voltage DC-AC support system solution is less risky and more reliable.