LA-Lithium Battery Transition - An Alternative Solution

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

I used my AGM type LA batteries for five years as a service battery on my boat. Since the performance of AGM batteries has decreased this season, I decided to replace them with drop-in type Lifepo4 batteries.

Prismatic type Lifepo4 batteries, the safer and more economical type of lithium technology. It is important that the cost for per unit active Ah (AAh) of these batteries are about the same as AGM batteries. When the AAh/Year cost of Lifepo4 batteries is compared with AGM batteries in terms of life, the battery cost per year is almost 1/2-1/3 less since the promised life for prismatic Lifepo4 battery technology is 4000-6000 cycles. Not to mention the high performance and energy quality that comes with Lifepo4 technology. When the four-fold AAh/Weight advantage is added to this, it is seen that the advantages that come with the Lifepo4 battery are quite good in the long run.

The biggest obstacle to making a definitive decision about Lifepo4 battery transition is the problems that arise as a result of charging these batteries with alternator. The cost of devices that are necessary to accomplish alternator charging of Lifepo4 batteries. The cost for installation and adaptation of the existing electrical system is also too high.

This is because:

-It is necessary to replace the existing alternator with an externally regulated alternator, which is quite expensive.

-The need for the alternator to work with a rather expensive DC-DC charger.

-The control units used to prevent serious problems in the alternator charging line as a result of the uncontrolled activation of the detached battery circuit breakers managed by BMS in the Lifepo4 battery are also expensive.

If such problems arise when deciding to switch LA battery to Lifepo4 battery just because of the alternator then a solution which cancel the alternator can be considered. To do this, an alternative charging source is needed. This is possible if solar, wind or shore charging is at hand.

You have many reasons to invest less for a better alternative energy source instead of buying a new alternator, a DC-Dc charger and much more. It is possible to kill two birds with one stone by investing to increase solar or wind energy capacity.

The alternator on the engine, which is completely disconnected from the service batteries, only charges the engine battery. The engine battery can be kept in shape by taking energy from the service batteries with a charge equalization mechanism containing a simple timer or a small dc-dc charger so that the charge level does not drop when the engine is not running for a long time.

[hjohnson]

So the reality is that I simply don't have room for much solar on my little 27' sailboat, unless i wanted to turn her into a floating power station, which would make sailing difficult.

The alternator itself was cheap, I just had my local alternator shop rebuild an 85A Hitachi alternator salvaged from a 70HP yanmar, and modify it for external regulation.

The expensive part was the WS500, which was about $650 all in, but that will transition to the alternator on the new engine when we eventually repower.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

So the reality is that I simply don't have room for much solar on my little 27' sailboat, unless i wanted to turn her into a floating power station, which would make sailing difficult.

The alternator itself was cheap, I just had my local alternator shop rebuild an 85A Hitachi alternator salvaged from a 70HP yanmar, and modify it for external regulation.

The expensive part was the WS500, which was about $650 all in, but that will transition to the alternator on the new engine when we eventually repower.

Dear sailing friend,
You didn't need to override the alternator's own regulator. You could have solved the problem without buying an expensive new regulator by simply disconnecting the brush that supplies the rotor with the excitation current and soldering two pieces of heat-resistant wire to the ends.

By connecting a 90°C thermostat, a small VSR - TR relays between these two wires, it is also possible to put a simple on-off switch to protect the alternator from overheating and before the Lifepo4 HvCutoff event and turn it off whenever you want. Their total cost does not exceed $100.

The installation I mentioned above is currently working without any problems on my boat. If the energy from my solar panels is 20-30% higher than the daily energy consumption, there is no problem to worry about.

Conventional type monocrystalline solar panels that I installed on my boat 16 years ago had a power of 4x80=320 Wp and an area of ​​120x212 cm, ie 25,412 cm2. I replaced them with new high efficiency monocrystalline panels 4X150=600 Wp 115x271cm ie 31.165 cm2 area. In the past, I was able to get a maximum charging current of 15-17 A, with the new panels I can produce a maximum charging current of 30-36 A, and in this way, I can easily meet my daily energy needs.

The area covered by solar panels has increased by only 22.6%, but the increase in energy produced is almost 100%. There are also double-sided solar panels that can give a higher efficiency increase than this. Since the energy produced from the sun is more than my daily energy needs, I keep the alternator off all the time. Sometimes I even turn off the solar power system all day long to change the Lifepo4 battery DOD% rate.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

I used my AGM type LA batteries for five years as a service battery on my boat. Since the performance of AGM batteries has decreased this season, I decided to replace them with drop-in type Lifepo4 batteries.

Prismatic type Lifepo4 batteries, the safer and more economical type of lithium technology. It is important that the cost for per unit active Ah (AAh) of these batteries are about the same as AGM batteries. When the AAh/Year cost of Lifepo4 batteries is compared with AGM batteries in terms of life, the battery cost per year is almost 1/2-1/3 less since the promised life for prismatic Lifepo4 battery technology is 4000-6000 cycles. Not to mention the high performance and energy quality that comes with Lifepo4 technology. When the four-fold AAh/Weight advantage is added to this, it is seen that the advantages that come with the Lifepo4 battery are quite good in the long run.

The biggest obstacle to making a definitive decision about Lifepo4 battery transition is the problems that arise as a result of charging these batteries with alternator. The cost of devices that are necessary to accomplish alternator charging of Lifepo4 batteries. The cost for installation and adaptation of the existing electrical system is also too high.

This is because:

-It is necessary to replace the existing alternator with an externally regulated alternator, which is quite expensive.

-The need for the alternator to work with a rather expensive DC-DC charger.

-The control units used to prevent serious problems in the alternator charging line as a result of the uncontrolled activation of the detached battery circuit breakers managed by BMS in the Lifepo4 battery are also expensive.

If such problems arise when deciding to switch LA battery to Lifepo4 battery just because of the alternator then a solution which cancel the alternator can be considered. To do this, an alternative charging source is needed. This is possible if solar, wind or shore charging is at hand.

You have many reasons to invest less for a better alternative energy source instead of buying a new alternator, a DC-Dc charger and much more. It is possible to kill two birds with one stone by investing to increase solar or wind energy capacity.

The alternator on the engine, which is completely disconnected from the service batteries, only charges the engine battery. The engine battery can be kept in shape by taking energy from the service batteries with a charge equalization mechanism containing a simple timer or a small dc-dc charger so that the charge level does not drop when the engine is not running for a long time.

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Dear sailing friend,
You didn't need to override the alternator's own regulator. You could have solved the problem without buying an expensive new regulator by simply disconnecting the brush that supplies the rotor with the excitation current and soldering two pieces of heat-resistant wire to the ends.

By connecting a 90°C thermostat, a small VSR - TR relays between these two wires, it is also possible to put a simple on-off switch to protect the alternator from overheating and before the Lifepo4 HvCutoff event and turn it off whenever you want. Their total cost does not exceed $100.

The installation I mentioned above is currently working without any problems on my boat. If the energy from my solar panels is 20-30% higher than the daily energy consumption, there is no problem to worry about.

Conventional type monocrystalline solar panels that I installed on my boat 16 years ago had a power of 4x80=320 Wp and an area of ​​120x212 cm, ie 25,412 cm2. I replaced them with new high efficiency monocrystalline panels 4X150=600 Wp 115x271cm ie 31.165 cm2 area. In the past, I was able to get a maximum charging current of 15-17 A, with the new panels I can produce a maximum charging current of 30-36 A, and in this way, I can easily meet my daily energy needs.

The area covered by solar panels has increased by only 22.6%, but the increase in energy produced is almost 100%. There are also double-sided solar panels that can give a higher efficiency increase than this. Since the energy produced from the sun is more than my daily energy needs, I keep the alternator off all the time. Sometimes I even turn off the solar power system all day long to change the Lifepo4 battery DOD% rate.

Well, which is it, both your positions can't be right.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Uncle Bob,

Both Quotes that you resend in your post is right.

First quote contain my Alternative Solution for LA-Lithium Transition.

Second quote contain my own solution which is applied in my own boat.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

I used my AGM type LA batteries for five years as a service battery on my boat. Since the performance of AGM batteries has decreased this season, I decided to replace them with drop-in type Lifepo4 batteries.



Prismatic type Lifepo4 batteries, the safer and more economical type of lithium technology. It is important that the cost for per unit active Ah (AAh) of these batteries are about the same as AGM batteries. When the AAh/Year cost of Lifepo4 batteries is compared with AGM batteries in terms of life, the battery cost per year is almost 1/2-1/3 less since the promised life for prismatic Lifepo4 battery technology is 4000-6000 cycles. Not to mention the high performance and energy quality that comes with Lifepo4 technology. When the four-fold AAh/Weight advantage is added to this, it is seen that the advantages that come with the Lifepo4 battery are quite good in the long run.



The biggest obstacle to making a definitive decision about Lifepo4 battery transition is the problems that arise as a result of charging these batteries with alternator. The cost of devices that are necessary to accomplish alternator charging of Lifepo4 batteries. The cost for installation and adaptation of the existing electrical system is also too high.



This is because:



-It is necessary to replace the existing alternator with an externally regulated alternator, which is quite expensive.



-The need for the alternator to work with a rather expensive DC-DC charger.



-The control units used to prevent serious problems in the alternator charging line as a result of the uncontrolled activation of the detached battery circuit breakers managed by BMS in the Lifepo4 battery are also expensive.



If such problems arise when deciding to switch LA battery to Lifepo4 battery just because of the alternator then a solution which cancel the alternator can be considered. To do this, an alternative charging source is needed. This is possible if solar, wind or shore charging is at hand.



You have many reasons to invest less for a better alternative energy source instead of buying a new alternator, a DC-Dc charger and much more. It is possible to kill two birds with one stone by investing to increase solar or wind energy capacity.



The alternator on the engine, which is completely disconnected from the service batteries, only charges the engine battery. The engine battery can be kept in shape by taking energy from the service batteries with a charge equalization mechanism containing a simple timer or a small dc-dc charger so that the charge level does not drop when the engine is not running for a long time.

I agree this is not an inexpensive exercise.

However I would say you dont require all of-
1 External Aternator regulator,
2 New Alternator, and
3 DC DC charger.

External Alternator Regulator is the most relevant. Particularly one that is fully programmable and has Temp sensors. The Wakespeed WS500 is the pick currently. The Balmar is also ok.

New Alternator is not essential. You could convert your old one to External Regulation. And use the Regulator to limit its output to a sustainable amount. However in the interest of being able to utilise fully the capacity of the Lithium it maybe a worthwhile investment.

However this is a slippery slope as with big alternators you also start wanting a multi rib belt and pulley kit.

It starts adding up.

DC DC charger IMO is not really needed as the External Regulator will do everything a DCDC charger will. In fact it may limit the charging capacity of your system. Ie eg 100A alternator trying to charge through a 60A DCDC charger.

This is one of the reasons most people get Lithiums so it doesnt make sense to me.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Dear sailing friend,
You didn't need to override the alternator's own regulator. You could have solved the problem without buying an expensive new regulator by simply disconnecting the brush that supplies the rotor with the excitation current and soldering two pieces of heat-resistant wire to the ends.

By connecting a 90°C thermostat, a small VSR - TR relays between these two wires, it is also possible to put a simple on-off switch to protect the alternator from overheating and before the Lifepo4 HvCutoff event and turn it off whenever you want. Their total cost does not exceed $100.

The installation I mentioned above is currently working without any problems on my boat. If the energy from my solar panels is 20-30% higher than the daily energy consumption, there is no problem to worry about.

Conventional type monocrystalline solar panels that I installed on my boat 16 years ago had a power of 4x80=320 Wp and an area of ​​120x212 cm, ie 25,412 cm2. I replaced them with new high efficiency monocrystalline panels 4X150=600 Wp 115x271cm ie 31.165 cm2 area. In the past, I was able to get a maximum charging current of 15-17 A, with the new panels I can produce a maximum charging current of 30-36 A, and in this way, I can easily meet my daily energy needs.

The area covered by solar panels has increased by only 22.6%, but the increase in energy produced is almost 100%. There are also double-sided solar panels that can give a higher efficiency increase than this. Since the energy produced from the sun is more than my daily energy needs, I keep the alternator off all the time. Sometimes I even turn off the solar power system all day long to change the Lifepo4 battery DOD% rate.

Yes the 90C switch may well keep your Alternator from overheating.

However it doesnt stop your Lithium batteries getting charged at a continual 14-14.4v which will most likely overcharge your Lithium batteries.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Uncle Bob,

Both Quotes that you resend in your post is right.

First quote contain my Alternative Solution for LA-Lithium Transition.

Second quote contain my own solution which is applied in my own boat.

Either one or the other is BS, make up your mind.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

"Yes the 90C switch may well keep your Alternator from overheating.

However it doesnt stop your Lithium batteries getting charged at a continual 14-14.4v which will most likely overcharge your Lithium batteries."

Q Xopa,

If you decide to use the alternator to charge Lifepo4 batteries then you need to use small Voltage Sensitive Relay & Time Relay combination to control the alternator's rotor excitement current on-off state. VSR & TR are powered by crank battery which senses the service battery voltage.

For LA-Lithium battery switching, my main suggestion is to disconnect the alternator from the service batteries and leave it to charge only the engine battery. To accomplish this, you need an alternative power source which has %20-30 higher capacity than the boats daily energy consumption.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

So the reality is that I simply don't have room for much solar on my little 27' sailboat, unless i wanted to turn her into a floating power station, which would make sailing difficult.

The alternator itself was cheap, I just had my local alternator shop rebuild an 85A Hitachi alternator salvaged from a 70HP yanmar, and modify it for external regulation.

The expensive part was the WS500, which was about $650 all in, but that will transition to the alternator on the new engine when we eventually repower.

I really must look at designing a cheap open source regulator project. Specialised ICs are readily available for this type of thing. No need to be as sophisticated as the wakespeed.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I really must look at designing a cheap open source regulator project. Specialised ICs are readily available for this type of thing. No need to be as sophisticated as the wakespeed.

It’s very easy, hardware is a temp sensor and a single MOSFET connected to the simplest Arduino.

Software measuring actual output voltage and alternator temperature as well as some smoothing for keeping trend of these values. Simple CC/CV algorithm.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

Dear sailing friend,
You didn't need to override the alternator's own regulator. You could have solved the problem without buying an expensive new regulator by simply disconnecting the brush that supplies the rotor with the excitation current and soldering two pieces of heat-resistant wire to the ends.

By connecting a 90°C thermostat, a small VSR - TR relays between these two wires, it is also possible to put a simple on-off switch to protect the alternator from overheating and before the Lifepo4 HvCutoff event and turn it off whenever you want. Their total cost does not exceed $100.

The installation I mentioned above is currently working without any problems on my boat. If the energy from my solar panels is 20-30% higher than the daily energy consumption, there is no problem to worry about.

Conventional type monocrystalline solar panels that I installed on my boat 16 years ago had a power of 4x80=320 Wp and an area of ​​120x212 cm, ie 25,412 cm2. I replaced them with new high efficiency monocrystalline panels 4X150=600 Wp 115x271cm ie 31.165 cm2 area. In the past, I was able to get a maximum charging current of 15-17 A, with the new panels I can produce a maximum charging current of 30-36 A, and in this way, I can easily meet my daily energy needs.

The area covered by solar panels has increased by only 22.6%, but the increase in energy produced is almost 100%. There are also double-sided solar panels that can give a higher efficiency increase than this. Since the energy produced from the sun is more than my daily energy needs, I keep the alternator off all the time. Sometimes I even turn off the solar power system all day long to change the Lifepo4 battery DOD% rate.

I want something that just works, and integrates. I don't want to have to screw around with bits and bobs, remembering to turn things off or risk a fire, and something that I can control so I can manage the load on my engine. It's a big alternator, on an engine powered by a geriatric squirrel.

The smarts in the regulator lets me manage the load based on RPMs. Right now, I have it configured so that the load presented below 1100 rpm is essentially zero so that the engine behaves well when I'm putt-putting in and out of my slip. When I crack the throttle up, it then ramps the alternator in gently. No muss, no fuss, no fighting with switches, or worrying about boiling my batteries. And when my batteries approach full, it just ramps down until the alternator is only supplying my house loads and keeping the battery current at 0. It's a beautiful system that I didn't have to fiddle with once on my last 11 day trip.

As far as solar goes, I've got about 12 square feet available on top of my dodger, and that's it. That's occupied by a pair of 60W monocrystaline panels, which are a fully capable of meeting my standby loads in the summer, and a decent range extender when I'm actually aboard and using things.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

hjohnson,

The biggest investments that increase the LA-Lithium transition costs are made to safely charge these batteries with the alternator. For some boats this may be a necessity. But why such a necessity for boats with sufficient alternative energy source?

The suggested solution here is to disconnect the alternator from the service batteries. In order to do this, an alternative energy source capable of producing sufficient energy is needed. Without such a resource, such a solution is not possible.

120 Wp solar power is not enough for this solution. This solution is not applicable for a boat that is not suitable for creating an alternative power source.

If you have an advanced regulator for alternator charging, you should continue to use it.

[more]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Yes the 90C switch may well keep your Alternator from overheating.

However it doesnt stop your Lithium batteries getting charged at a continual 14-14.4v which will most likely overcharge your Lithium batteries.

with 14.4v you dont charge lifepo4 battery to 50%

14.4 Voltage, electric potential difference is to low to electric current flow in mass number.



or use 1v (or what you think is good)Voltage drop split charge diodes

[more]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAEzCcayI0g

must watch best explain charging start , service battery