Is Lithium Worth it?

[gsuescum]

I hope so...

[CaptainRivet]

Electrucal boat on FLA.....only the huge amount of weight of an FLA bank for an electric boat is nonsense. The amount of a power=battery capacity you need to just move that junk of lead is contraproductive and generate huge losses.
2nd FLAs are simply not made for continuous high current draws due to their high internal resistance, simple physics...

Lithium are cheaper if you look over the lifetime and per kwh costs.
Any sailoir who maintains his boat himself can setup a lithium bank. There are hundreds of videos how to do that.
My recommendation woukd be get good raw cells from Winston, Calb, Sinopoly and get your own BMS so you know what you have and can swap it out in case it breaks. I have 3 BMS in parallel, the smart BMS123 is just 120$. Why fist to share load so each is max 50% of his rating to last long, 2nd tripple failsafe and finally 3rd i can simply add another 200 or 300AH in case they degrade, i need more power or just like to have more reserve without changing anything.

Invest in charging is not huge, just get a sterling Dc to dc charger that maxes out your current alternator, the solar charger controller you said can be adjusted. You will be surprised how fast they are full... Yes they can take even more but the raise in efficiency is enormous.
I have and would install a bigger then normal bowtruster/windlass battery bank in the bow (eg 2x200AH) FLA batterues which are a) dump load if Lithium is full, b) backup 2nd house bank and c) backup starter bank.

[StumpLifter]

6v golf cart batteries make great house batteries lasting up to 8 years with rough use. Works with existing charging system when wiring in 2 battery pairs in series to make a 12 volt system. Think of the tough environment (multiple charge/discharge day after day in all kinds of weather) Far more abuse than you would subject them to on your boat. Lithium - to temperamental IMHO.

[Frode]

Originally Posted by Gerrit Coetzee

Can you, or do you run Airconditioner from the batteries? If so: how many and /or BTU's.?

So far, I have only run a small AC unit, 5kBTU. It's super efficient (120VAC), so puts no more load on the system than a small fridge. It cools the main cabin nicely, albeit over a couple of hours.

I have not attempted to run my large 36kBTU (240VAC) on this setup, and don't intend to. While it might work (electric load would be around 3,800W), I'm not sure the old compressor is compatible with a soft-start device, which would be necessary, in order to limit the inrush current.

A modern AC unit, with already built-in soft-start, can easily run off of battery/inverter combo, regardless of battery chemistry. It's all a matter of usable capacity, both in batteries and inverters, and how and when you get to replace the energy consumed.

[Frode]

Originally Posted by StumpLifter

6v golf cart batteries make great house batteries lasting up to 8 years with rough use.

While it might be correct that the batteries will still be usable after eight years, the question is how much capacity loss have you had during those years? Most people aren't using anywhere near their initial available capacity, so think the batteries are still fine, when in reality, a different usage pattern would have rendered them long-since useless for those owners.

I had 6V Trojans in my previous boat. 1,050AH worth (initially). At the eight-year mark, I couldn't even get 200AH out of them. Talking to Trojan they indicated I must have really known what I was doing, getting them to last that long.

Compare that with my four-year old LiFePO4, where I can still extract, without issue, the full rated capacity. Compare it also to what CatNewBee gets out of his batteries, and they are definitely not babied.

[kev_rm]

Cost / Lifetime watt-hour is pretty much all that matters unless you have significant space or weight constraints which most boats do not. Lithium is not competitive with FLA or AGM yet. Disagree? Show me the math, I've done it a dozen times.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by kev_rm

Cost / Lifetime watt-hour is pretty much all that matters unless you have significant space or weight constraints which most boats do not. Lithium is not competitive with FLA or AGM yet. Disagree? Show me the math, I've done it a dozen times.

I strongly agree, Lithium outperforms FLA or AGM by magnitudes in any discipline, including price and long term value.

[StumpLifter]

Her's a more comprehensive discussion from a Lion "true believer" He tries to justify his surprise $4000 bill for new batteries. http://www.technomadia.com/2020/06/w...rs-of-lifepo4/. Point being - leave the battery switch on by accident and it could cost you multiple boat bucks. Me - I screw up all the time.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by StumpLifter

Her's a more comprehensive discussion from a Lion "true believer" He tries to justify his surprise $4000 bill for new batteries. http://www.technomadia.com/2020/06/w...rs-of-lifepo4/. Point being - leave the battery switch on by accident and it could cost you multiple boat bucks. Me - I screw up all the time.

I know someone who took there old non working diesel out and put in an electric motor for their auxiliary. They bought 12 Lifepo4 Batteries and run their boat as 48v. They have sailed across the Atlantic and are now in Scandinavia. They haven’t looked back. They rave about the batteries. To me the numbers when added up its an easy decision. You just have to get past the initial cost.

[sailorboy1]

One of the things you never read about is someone who put in $1000-2000 worth of FLA/AGMs burning up their batteries, alternator, battery charger, like you do for LFP.

[Frode]

Originally Posted by StumpLifter

Point being - leave the battery switch on by accident and it could cost you multiple boat bucks. Me - I screw up all the time.

In other discussions on this board, the type of balancing circuitry that ended up killing the batteries is referred to as a Battery Murdering System. They've shown an unfortunate tendency to cause way more harm than protection.

Stay away from those, and use a real BMS, and LFPs become easy to handle.

Even if you compared the $4k those guys put into their system, vs. a presumably lower cost of FLA/AGM, for the same period of time, they may rightfully claim that "it was worth it".

Since we're discussing worth, and not cost, individual perceptions will vary significantly.

[StumpLifter]

Originally Posted by Happ

I know someone who took there old non working diesel out and put in an electric motor for their auxiliary. They bought 12 Lifepo4 Batteries and run their boat as 48v. They have sailed across the Atlantic and are now in Scandinavia. They haven’t looked back. They rave about the batteries. To me the numbers when added up its an easy decision. You just have to get past the initial cost.

What about the RISK!? I know someone whose phone caught on fire in his pants pocket. Had to have a skin graft and now caries his phone in a bag he can quickly discard. I know a guy with a Tesla that barely got out alive when his car caught fire and exploded. I knew a boat called Conception that just caught fire and burned 34 divers to death where a lithium ion device is suspected in playing a key roll in the disaster. KNOW THE RISKS!! https://www.independent.com/2020/05/...ng-the-puzzle/

[Frode]

Originally Posted by StumpLifter

What about the RISK!? I know someone whose phone caught on fire in his pants pocket.

Only seriously ignorant people would even mention this! For those of you belonging to this category, no new technology is ever appropriate. If you don't understand that it wasn't an LFP battery that caught fire in someone's pants, you should keep out of these discussions.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Happ

I know someone who took there old non working diesel out and put in an electric motor for their auxiliary. They bought 12 Lifepo4 Batteries and run their boat as 48v. They have sailed across the Atlantic and are now in Scandinavia. They haven’t looked back. They rave about the batteries. To me the numbers when added up its an easy decision. You just have to get past the initial cost.

"You just have to get past the initial cost."

Aside from the replacement of the diesel with an electric, which only works if you REALLY like sailing, there is probably no valid argument against Lithium except the initial cost of batteries and installation and associated equipment.

People love the batteries, and I don't blame them, but the math does not work. Forget the cost per watt over the life of the batteries. Container loads of ketchup is cheaper then buying it by the bottle, but who needs that much ketchup? Look at the price per year.

[S/V Adeline]

Originally Posted by wingssail

"You just have to get past the initial cost."

Aside from the replacement of the diesel with an electric, which only works if you REALLY like sailing, there is probably no valid argument against Lithium except the initial cost of batteries and installation and associated equipment.

People love the batteries, and I don't blame them, but the math does not work. Forget the cost per watt over the life of the batteries. Container loads of ketchup is cheaper then buying it by the bottle, but who needs that much ketchup? Look at the price per year.

Being in the market, I can get two 6v agm 220 amp/hr for $400. I can get 4 3.2 lipo4 280 amp/hr for $454... seems like a no-brainer