Ideas for the Simplest Lithium Retrofit?

[SVMakana]

I read this forum and my head spins faster than my alternator.

What might a simplest but prudent retrofit from lead acid to lithium house battery bank look like?

Here's where my system is:

12 volts
3 LA house battery bank
1 LA engine starter battery
80 amp Hitachi alternator
Old inverter (I don't really care about having DC to AC capability anymore)

What I'm hoping to do:

- Replace LA house bank with Lithium
- Charge LI (house) and LA (starter) directly from alternator, to take advantage of LI's faster charging capabilities
- Be able to connect to shore power (but I want to get away from using it routinely)
- Be able to add a solar panel or two into the mix, at least enough to keep the batteries topped off when I'm away from the boat.

Questions

- With an alternator protector, can I charge LA starter and LI house directly from the alternator?
- Can I parallel wire 3 x LI house batteries together, or is something more complicated required?
- What's the easiest way to add solar charging?
- How would you spec out a simple but sound retrofit?

Thanks for your thoughts and any suggestions. My head spins trying to understand all the pieces and how they interrelate.

Eric
Makana 1988 Cal 39

[MWGDVC]

In my view, the simplest, most cost effective set up for what you want to do would be a DC-DC charger to feed the LiFePo house bank from the LA starter battery.
Li charging requires a charge profile your stock alternator cannot do. It will, however feed your LA start battery what it needs.
The DC-DC can be set up to feed what the Li house bank needs. A stock 80A alternator would quickly overheat if it was asked to feed 300AH(assuming 100AHx3) of LiFePo directly. The DC-DC if sized correctly, will limit the current draw to keep the alternator within it's operating temperature range. I wouldn't go larger than 30A for the DC-DC.

Adding solar, get a controller capable of a LiFePo charge profile, follow the manual.
You can, in most cases parallel 3 Li together, check the manufacturer's specs to be sure before you buy.

You most probably will need a new shore power charger to handle the Li house bank, unless what you have is programmable.

[wrwakefield]

MarineHowTo [subject expert] recently published an article answering your question:

https://marinehowto.com/easy-lifepo4-conversion/

Best wishes with your project.

Cheers, Bill

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by SVMakana

80 amp Hitachi alternator



- Charge LI (house) and LA (starter) directly from alternator, to take advantage of LI's faster charging capabilities

Eric, your alternator won't do it. You may not have ever seen this:


Hitachi/Yanmar Alternators: (by Maine Sail)


Some alternators though, such as those made by Hitachi and found on Yanmar diesels, are dumber than a pound of beetle poop. Actually, to the alternator, they are pretty smart but to your batteries and the speed of charging they are flat out stupid. Why?

Hitachi alts with dumb regulators, and some others, limit voltage but also reduce voltage based on alternator temperature. This is a self protective feature installed in the internal dumb regulator to prevent the alternator from cooking itself. Remember voltage is the pressure that allows more current to flow. So, if we reduce the absorption voltage, then we also reduce the current the alternator is supplying.. Any battery at any state of charge simply will not accept the same current at 13.4V that it did at 14.4V and as a result the alternator will run cooler. What do you suppose this does to your batteries over time.......?

The problem is that when cold you will get 14.3V to 14.4V out of the Hitachi but as the alternator heats up the dumb regulator begins to reduce the CV/voltage limit based on the alternators internal temperature. It is not uncommon to find a Hitachi alternator at 13.4V when hot. This is REALLY, REALLY DUMB....

If you have a dumb regulator, and notice the voltage dropping, it is likely a temp compensated dumb regulator. Get rid of it or plan to buy new batteries more often.

If you have a temp compensated alternator or a Hitachi alternator on a Yanmar you really are in dire need of external regulation if deep cycling a larger battery bank.


This is from:


http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125392


and these, too:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-125843.html




http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-142083.html

[SVMakana]

Interesting! Yup, a Hitachi/Yanmar alternator is what I have.

OK, so maybe I replace the Hitachi alternator with a higher output alternator (and associated belts, etc.), hook that to a Wakespeed regulator (set on LI profile), run that to the bigger Li housebank, and then connect a DC-DC charger to keep the LA starter battery topped off?

I'd still need to figure out shore power charging, and solar charging, but maybe I can do those separately. Or are they too interdependent?

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Eric, your alternator won't do it. You may not have ever seen this:


Hitachi/Yanmar Alternators: (by Maine Sail)


Some alternators though, such as those made by Hitachi and found on Yanmar diesels, are dumber than a pound of beetle poop. Actually, to the alternator, they are pretty smart but to your batteries and the speed of charging they are flat out stupid. Why?

Hitachi alts with dumb regulators, and some others, limit voltage but also reduce voltage based on alternator temperature. This is a self protective feature installed in the internal dumb regulator to prevent the alternator from cooking itself. Remember voltage is the pressure that allows more current to flow. So, if we reduce the absorption voltage, then we also reduce the current the alternator is supplying.. Any battery at any state of charge simply will not accept the same current at 13.4V that it did at 14.4V and as a result the alternator will run cooler. What do you suppose this does to your batteries over time.......?

The problem is that when cold you will get 14.3V to 14.4V out of the Hitachi but as the alternator heats up the dumb regulator begins to reduce the CV/voltage limit based on the alternators internal temperature. It is not uncommon to find a Hitachi alternator at 13.4V when hot. This is REALLY, REALLY DUMB....

If you have a dumb regulator, and notice the voltage dropping, it is likely a temp compensated dumb regulator. Get rid of it or plan to buy new batteries more often.

If you have a temp compensated alternator or a Hitachi alternator on a Yanmar you really are in dire need of external regulation if deep cycling a larger battery bank.


This is from:


http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=125392


and these, too:


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...on-125843.html




https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-142083.html

[CarlF]

I would start with the simplest "safe" solution and see if that works for you:

Get two good drop in batteries from a good brand like Epoch (which has an 11 year warranty). Wire them in parallel as I expect your current house bank is wired. Get at least as many AH as your present house bank. More never hurts.

Install a Victron Orion XS 50amp DC-DC charger(which will be a good match to your 80amp alternator). Don't change anything on your alternator. Let it keep charging the LA start battery.

Wire your solar panels to the bus bar with Victron MPT solar chargers. Usually most efficient to have one small controller per solar panel.


If you have some budget left over:

1) A Victron BMV battery monitor (this will also talk to your phone)
2) a Victron MultiPlus 2000 watt inverter/charger. Run your shore power directly into it after the main breaker and let it manage both charging and inverter. Get the optional MK3-USB dongle that lets you program the Multiplus using a laptop.

The above is safe and conservative. Start off setting the DC-DC charger to 30 amps and increase to 50 if the alternator isn't getting too hot (over 200F measured by a temp gun).

Be sure to use large cables to avoid voltage drop and install a T class fuse and off switch in the lithium battery positive side.

When setting it up, be careful to set the charge voltage for DC-DC charger, Inverter/charger and solar controllers to the voltage recommended by the battery manufacturer (typically 14.4v absorbtion and 13.5v float).

If you decide this isn't giving you enough charging amps, you can install a larger alternator at anytime in the future. But I'm betting this will work for you.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SVMakana

I read this forum and my head spins faster than my alternator.

What might a simplest but prudent retrofit from lead acid to lithium house battery bank look like?

Here's where my system is:

12 volts
3 LA house battery bank
1 LA engine starter battery
80 amp Hitachi alternator
Old inverter (I don't really care about having DC to AC capability anymore)

What I'm hoping to do:

- Replace LA house bank with Lithium
- Charge LI (house) and LA (starter) directly from alternator, to take advantage of LI's faster charging capabilities
- Be able to connect to shore power (but I want to get away from using it routinely)
- Be able to add a solar panel or two into the mix, at least enough to keep the batteries topped off when I'm away from the boat.

Questions

- With an alternator protector, can I charge LA starter and LI house directly from the alternator?
- Can I parallel wire 3 x LI house batteries together, or is something more complicated required?
- What's the easiest way to add solar charging?
- How would you spec out a simple but sound retrofit?

Thanks for your thoughts and any suggestions. My head spins trying to understand all the pieces and how they interrelate.

Eric
Makana 1988 Cal 39

This is the classic setup to be done as simplest setup.
- Keep your lead starter as its now connected
- Replace the 3 lead house battery with 1 x 280-300AH lithium battery and insert a disconnect switch+ replace bank fuse with class T or NH type rated for your connection cable so most likley 150 or 200A.
- Connect via a 50A fuse a DC2DC charger renogy 40A (budget) or 50A orion XS (premium) to the lead starter with input and connect with a 60A fuse the output to the LFP battery. Adjust DC2DC to lithium
- install solar with Victron Smart MPPT, one per panel, output to lithium battery and adjust MPPTs to lithium profile.
Job done.

Details:
1) 3 lead batteries each of usable capacity of 20% till 40% can be easily replace by one 280AH-300AH battery. Means 300AH replace 600-800AH of lead.
A) And no you don't need at least 2 batteries for redudancy like with lead.
With lead batteries the most common failure is a dead battery=> battery is the weakest link, that's why you need multiple in parallel.
With lithium batteries the most common failure is failing of the main battery fuse=ultra rare=no 2 batteries needed.
B) for every battery you need a class T or NH fuse, disconnect device (eg a switch) and I dependent disconnect from BMS. This adds up to around 450Euro per battery. Means 2x100AH battery will cost you more then 300AH but you only have 200AH with no additional advantages but dozen disadvantages and failure points during install as well as operation. Means buy 1 battery with as big capacity as possible, 2nd best are 2 batteries if you eg have space constrains or capacity above 300Ah per battery.
C) in 99.5% all failures concern all batteries installed in parallel, so your redudancy is of no value. Instead get additionally to your one or two big capacity house a small motorbike 10 or 20AH AGM or LFP and install it as buffer into your main cable to the switchboard. That a) isolates your senstive electronics from the spikes at house and b) powers your boat without flipping a switch when house cuts off and c) reduces voltage drop=all connected life longer. To charge it use either 20A renogy DC2DC or 18A orion TR-smart. That has much more value and advantages as splitting your house in 2 or more batteries for redudancy with lithium!!!

2) 80A Hitachi is dumb as toastbread alternator and also no real profits from going externally regulated. So the best and also simpler use a DC2DC charger, butget 40A renogy that also has a switch to reduce to 20A for eg low rpm motorsailing or expensive Victron Orion XS 50A and reduce that down to 45A (current can be adjusted from 1 to 50A). Also chage profil to lithium battery.
3) victron MPPT per panel, most likely the 75/15 or 100/200 connect to solar and LFP and change your MPPTs to lithium profil.
4) nothing to do on the inverter, it's just a load.

Job done.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SVMakana

I read this forum and my head spins faster than my alternator.

What might a simplest but prudent retrofit from lead acid to lithium house battery bank look like?

Here's where my system is:

12 volts
3 LA house battery bank
1 LA engine starter battery
80 amp Hitachi alternator
Old inverter (I don't really care about having DC to AC capability anymore)

What I'm hoping to do:

- Replace LA house bank with Lithium
- Charge LI (house) and LA (starter) directly from alternator, to take advantage of LI's faster charging capabilities
- Be able to connect to shore power (but I want to get away from using it routinely)
- Be able to add a solar panel or two into the mix, at least enough to keep the batteries topped off when I'm away from the boat.

Questions

- With an alternator protector, can I charge LA starter and LI house directly from the alternator?
- Can I parallel wire 3 x LI house batteries together, or is something more complicated required?
- What's the easiest way to add solar charging?
- How would you spec out a simple but sound retrofit?

Thanks for your thoughts and any suggestions. My head spins trying to understand all the pieces and how they interrelate.

Eric
Makana 1988 Cal 39

Pm me I will help as I can

My system is 250ah lifepo4 house
a grp 24 lead start battery a
40amp dc2dc renogy unit
75 amp chevy stock alternator
Also a 350 amp shunt and battery monitor
https://www.amazon.com/AiLi-Voltmete...360505489&th=1

Currently 200 watts solar through an epever tracer 4210An mppt controller with the ble unit for Bluetooth access to set lifepo4 charge profile.
That's about as simple as you can get.

[Pizzazz]

Some really good ideas. For me, the biggest benefit of LFP is the fast charge capability. This means that there is really no alternative to the WS500 alternator regulator. You will have to modify the Hitachi to control it with the WS500 or just get a new alternator, possibly 24V since they are way more efficient.

LFP 314 cell prices are now around $100/kWh and you need four cells to get to 12.8V for a 4 kWh system ($500 including BMS). This will give you the equivalent experience of eight golf card sized batteries. It will also like to be charged at between 1 and 2 kW.

The typical Hitachi alternator produces 30-40A @ 14V or 500 watts. It is not enough. Much better to spend the money on a higher powered alternator and the WS500 controller. Say 150A x 14V = 1,500 watts. This is where the money should go, not into some DC-DC at 30A, gauges or similar. You can monitor LFP health with a simple voltmeter since the voltage does not sag. So, don't waste money on bells and whistles that you will never use. Battery, alternator, WS500. The alternative is to find some cheap DC-DC converter from a solar installer but I have not looked at that market.

With this setup, you would be able to charge the batteries in 1-2 hours and they will last for a couple of days. You will need to run the engine to get hot water and move around anyway.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

MarineHowTo [subject expert] recently published an article answering your question:

https://marinehowto.com/easy-lifepo4-conversion/

Best wishes with your project.

Cheers, Bill

Great post and article. Dead straight and simple

[Donnybrook]

What's the practical cost (parts) in the US and how many hours for a self install as described here?

It's time to replace my 7 year old golf-cart batteries and I'd like to go LFP, but I know I can replace the golf cart batteries for under $700 and an hour of my time. I have a 100 amp externally regulated alternator (ARS-4) and TrueCharge 40 (original yellow model). My start battery is an Optima agm (blue) connected with a echo0charge. Everything works well, but I'd like the faster charging and potential to increase usable energy.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Donnybrook

What's the practical cost (parts) in the US and how many hours for a self install as described here?

It's time to replace my 7 year old golf-cart batteries and I'd like to go LFP, but I know I can replace the golf cart batteries for under $700 and an hour of my time. I have a 100 amp externally regulated alternator (ARS-4) and TrueCharge 40 (original yellow model). My start battery is an Optima agm (blue) connected with a echo0charge. Everything works well, but I'd like the faster charging and potential to increase usable energy.

How big is your gc2 bank?
Depending on size for price but with everything you have that can be set to the lfp profile it's not to labor intensive and a lot lighter.

Swap batteries and set charging to lifepo4 profile.
Also a small dc2dc to charge Hu our start battery from the lifepo4 side.

[HeinSdL]

Request is for simplest solution. Drop in lithium battery eg LiTime, dcdc charger ideally Victron Xs50, done. Maybe also a smart shunt from victron to assist the xs50.

I don't know where this dumber than beetle dung nonsense comes from. But nonsense it is as long as you know the limitations of your gear.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

Request is for simplest solution. Drop in lithium battery eg LiTime, dcdc charger ideally Victron Xs50, done. Maybe also a smart shunt from victron to assist the xs50.

I don't know where this dumber than beetle dung nonsense comes from. But nonsense it is as long as you know the limitations of your gear.

Read he has external reguator so simplest is set to lifepo4 profile dropin appropriate size single battery up to 400ah . A 5 amp dc2dc from lifepo4 to his agm start battery .

[sailorboy1]

there are so many of these threads

The simplest system is to just replace the acid batteries with drop-ins and let them protect themselves and do their thing. Thats all I did except for changing my charging sources setpoints.