How Soon Before Sodium Replaces Lithium Batteries?

[CatLove]

Sodium ion batteries are a commercial reality at this moment.
They still cost a little more than LiFePO but hopefully this is changing fast due to advantages like higher energy density and can be manufactured using the same assembly line as Li .
Right now Hakadi has 210Ah 3V sodium ion cells for $331 per 4 cells .
Where I live this is competitive with lithium .
Even Bluetti has a new power station based on sodium ion cells.
How long before LiFePO4 goes the way of the Dodo ?

[CaptainRivet]

Nope they are not. Major problem is their voltage range doesn't not fit as its too wide and you have even troubles finding an inverter that can use its full potential.
Sodium will go dodo...

For house bank LFP is perfect, the new big cells coming makes it possible to have a very simple 1BMS&1 battery setup simplifying installation even more and their very high reliablity means you don't need multiple redundancies and for starter plus trusters use LTO.

[The Docta]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Nope they are not. Major problem is their voltage range doesn't not fit as its too wide and you have even troubles finding an inverter that can use its full potential.
Sodium will go dodo...

For house bank LFP is perfect, the new big cells coming makes it possible to have a very simple 1BMS&1 battery setup simplifying installation even more and their very high reliablity means you don't need multiple redundancies and for starter plus trusters use LTO.

Correct, the voltage vs state of charge curve is like a 45 deg line! Totally unsuitable for a storage battery, especially when most will be wanting an inverter. The useable range is less than AGM. The LiFePo voltage vs SOC curve is pretty much perfection that given the non volatile chemistry of these batteries is definitely going to require something really special to beat.

[Fuss]

already was a thread on this last week, everything you need to know is in there

[Johan Leopard51]

I recently found a great special on 15kWh lifepo4 for what is in dollars $1750 so call it $0.12/Wh. I thought that was so good I bought another and still have to figure where I will use it. And yes I have a lot of battery experience, have 600kWh system at work.

If I follow you correctly then you paid $331 for 4 x 12V x 250 Ah so under $0.03/kWh!!! That is an insanely cheap price.

What is the usable range of SoC on Sodium?

[GordMay]

The future of energy storage is likely a mix of both technologies, each used in its most suitable role.

Sodium-ion batteries are ideal for applications, where energy density is less critical, than cost and safety, such as stationary storage, low-speed electric transport [like e-bikes], and backup power; while lithium-ion batteries will continue to lead in applications requiring high energy density, such as high-end electric vehicles, boats, and portable electronics, and tools.

Lithium-ion batteries remain lighter, and more compact, for the amount of energy they store, making them the best choice, for applications, where weight and space are concerns [like boats].

[Benz]

Are Sodium-ion batteries as susceptible to spontaneous combustion as the Li?

[GordMay]

No - they're LESS sususceptible.
Due to their inherent material stability, and lower energy density [& more*], sodium-ion batteries are significantly less susceptible to spontaneous combustion, and thermal runaway, than many common lithium-ion battery chemistries.

* “Research on the Thermal Runaway Behavior and Flammability Limits of Sodium-Ion and Lithium-Ion Batteries” ~ by Changbao Qi et al
➥ https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/11/1/24

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Benz

Are Sodium-ion batteries as susceptible to spontaneous combustion as the Li?

There are Li chemistries like Tesla-ion which are susceptible to spontaneous combustion, which no-one uses on a boat as house BUT all your power tools have one

And there is Lifepo4 which everyone uses as house on a boat which is not susceptible to spontaneous combustion at all

And there is LTO or Lithium titanate oxide which is the safest battery chemistry in the world avaliable to public, saver then Sodium-ion but shares the same issue of a badly fitting voltage range

All are LI chemistry derivatives, you just need to choose the right one LiFePo4/LFP or LTO.

[barnakiel]

I am afraid it is about market dominance not about the technology being viable.


When sod batteries become mainstream in car industry when we will get them for our boats too.


And batteries without chargers are just useless.


b.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am afraid it is about market dominance not about the technology being viable.


When sod batteries become mainstream in car industry when we will get them for our boats too.


And batteries without chargers are just useless.


b.

The point is they won't reach market dominance, LFP curve just fits much better for storage and RV/boats. But thats the market you need to get your economies of scale together with EV.

The EV motor doesn't care about that wide voltage range. But because of EV crises and their uncertain future i hardly doubt that the sodium are the solution for the EVs, also they still weight too much.

And for low voltage installations there are some decades old standards like 12V system is 10 to 15.0V and 20 till 30V for 24 all devices can operate which doesn't fit to sodium at all but need to. Thats also the reason LTO never made it beside a niche solution.

[newhaul]

Posted this in the other thread
https://youtu.be/AOlO5413pPM?si=CVBB4VgaDJeM9dkF

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...um-297153.html

[CatLove]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

The point is they won't reach market dominance, LFP curve just fits much better for storage and RV/boats. But thats the market you need to get your economies of scale together with EV.

The EV motor doesn't care about that wide voltage range. But because of EV crises and their uncertain future i hardly doubt that the sodium are the solution for the EVs, also they still weight too much.

And for low voltage installations there are some decades old standards like 12V system is 10 to 15.0V and 20 till 30V for 24 all devices can operate which doesn't fit to sodium at all but need to. Thats also the reason LTO never made it beside a niche solution.

Fundamentally I am surprised EV's made it this far. Fuel burning oxidation releases more energy per mole and faster than any other except nuclear.
Batteries that don't explode or burn are forever going to have lower energy density than fuel.
Once we decided that to h*ll with the environment , there's no other reason for EV's . Home energy storage, grid , yes, EV's no.
Ditching EV's is the tech equivalent of Wall Str "greed is good".

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CatLove

Fundamentally I am surprised EV's made it this far. Fuel burning oxidation releases more energy per mole and faster than any other except nuclear.
Batteries that don't explode or burn are forever going to have lower energy density than fuel.
Once we decided that to h*ll with the environment , there's no other reason for EV's . Home energy storage, grid , yes, EV's no.
Ditching EV's is the tech equivalent of Wall Str "greed is good".

Depends on where you live and how big your solar farm is .
If you make enough power to support your house and charge your electric car every day then ev makes some sense.
I own one just because it's an antique.

[CatLove]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I own one just because it's an antique.

An antique EV is a rarity, what model is it ?